Relic and the Long Distance Relationship

does relic love the game? i know they say they do but i've never sat down and talked to a developer about WWII or anything related.

relic's communication has improved, but there is nothing tangible. all we are getting more of now is "we value your feedback" or "we understand your concerns", "we are looking into this issue", or "we will have something new and exciting in the future!" type of deal.

The sad thing about this: its 100% true

I can’t help but feel like I’m in a semi abusive long distance relationship, with Relic playing the part of the heart breaker that goes out on the weekend and forgets to call. Then when she (yes, Relic is a she in this metaphor) finally does get around to talking with you, she vaguely glazes over all of the awesome shit she’s been doing, talks about how EXCITED she is, and leaves me to fill in the blanks about everything else. It’s not very fun. In the mean time I’m left to stew about all of the unresolved problems that have sat around for ages, and without a consistent line of communication, am left growing increasingly frustrated by the circumstances.

<Louis CK voice> But maaaybeeee... we're the needy insecure boyfriend with not much else going on. <Louis CK voice> (Not you personally but "the community")

In my head, marketing, customer support and communication are very different things. I think its hard to separating them as they're somewhat symbiotic.

I personally don't need to know about new content under development. What they're doing behind closed doors is their business. Once their trying to get me to buy, I want to be fully informed.

I do need to know what they are doing to resolve the problems I have with the software I have purchased. I understand Relics reluctance of promising something; they always want to deliver on these commitments. However, saying nothing communicates indifference to the needs of your customers. All I need is:

"We're working on problems/bugs A,D,E. We anticipate a resolution within time frame X. Problem B & C is more complicated than we anticipated, a resolution is now scheduled for time frame X".

<Louis CK voice> But maaaybeeee... we're the needy insecure boyfriend with not much else going on? <Louis CK voice> (Not you personally but "the community")

In my head, marketing, customer support and communication are very different things. I think its hard to separating them as they're somewhat symbiotic.

I personally don't need to know about new content under development. What they're doing behind closed doors is their business. Once their trying to get me to buy, I want to be fully informed.

I do need to know what they are doing to resolve the problems I have with the software I have purchased. I understand Relics reluctance of promising something; they always want to deliver on these commitments. However, saying nothing communicates indifference to the needs of your customers. All I need is:

"We're working on problems/bugs A,D,E. We anticipate a resolution within time frame X. Problem B & C is more complicated than we anticipated, a resolution is now scheduled for time frame X".

Good post, I understand that they want to deliver on their promises, it's just frustrating for things that have been an issue for a year plus going unresolved. At this point it is very apparent that Relic is just not a big enough studio to both create new content while continually polishing the game at a rate that I think we all would like.

There comes a point where i take everything they say with a grain of salt

You should take anything anyone says ever with a grain of salt

Boy howdy, this is a doozy. <cracks knuckles> I guess I'd better dig in.

1. Where is Relic's community manager?
A: On my weekend, at that moment of posting. Then, dealing with the flu. Then? In our FB messages, Twitter DMs, emails, Forum private messages, our forums, steam, coh2.org and so on. Now? Here.

2. What's up with ESL? Is it still a thing?
A: Yes, it is still a thing. It's still in the contracts phase right now, though. Once the 'boring business stuff' is more finalized, I'll have more to share and we will be speaking with the community on this.

3. Communication. We want more of it!
A: We're aware that this is the case. From a personal perspective, I tell you guys whatever I can, whenever I'm able to. From a business perspective, why do we often not communicate in-progress stuff? There are a ton of reasons, and the often differ from situation to situation.

I understand the 'we will be left to draw our own conclusions in the absence of information' sentiments, and I always advocate to be as clear or transparent with you guys whenever we can. Sometimes we're not able to. Sometimes someone says 'hey, you can't tell them that just yet, keep it under your hat' and there is a very good reason as to why that is. We have several parties involved that need to be considered, when it comes to sharing information. Our publisher, our own business plans, our platform, games press, and so on. We don’t get to be as transparent as an indie developer, because we have other partners we have to consult with as. We also don’t get to communicate in the same fashion as a much larger developer, because we have a smaller team. I am as of right now a one-person army with the community team. Back in June, there were three of us. We’re in this fun middle-ground area.

4. Communication has not gotten any better, Relic doesn't care. Zero communication.
A: I'm going to refute this one. I acknowledge that communication is not where you might want it to be at, but we have been making improvements. From our team adding intent information to patch notes, to being more responsive in forums when possible, to even spending more time to visit community live streams on Twitch – I KNOW some people have noticed, because some people have said so. Is there still more to do? Hell yeah. Can we still get better? Uh yep, totally. But to suggest it's not changing or improving isn't quite accurate. As some have mentioned, we've started sharing out community-run events on our social channels much more frequently, providing prizes and speaking more closely with people organizing these activities. You want it to improve faster, totally get it - but there are a number of factors here. I can pick a number of people out of this thread that I have been in direct contact with, in order to work building out better relationships with the community. To suggest we don't care? That's not true.

5. Of Bugs, Balance, Mice and Men
Bugs are something that our team is always looking into and investigating. The community is great at finding these, and helping to bring them to our attention. In addition to these reports, our teams find their own issues - frequently issues that don't get discussed in the forums. I’ve seen the team fix game-breaking bugs that don’t see the light of day, but are still very important to resolve. With some bugs, we don't know how long it will take to fix them. Sometimes a fix for one thing breaks another thing, and we have to go back to the drawing board. The bug reporting process is something that I am aware of as needing further attention. We are hoping to build out our community team further in the new year (I know some of you saw the job posting, since you linked to it in the forums) and once we have more hands on deck we can do more things. A lot of the developers we get compared to have four, six, more, people on their community team.

Balance is also another thing that our team is always working on. This is a tricky area to communicate on, everyone has their preferred factions and preferred player tiers, so discussing priorities in advance can quickly become an argument over what is more important. We don't JUST look at community comments when it comes to balance; we pull game numbers as well. The team has to consider both what the die-hard fans and the casual but dedicated fans want, and how these changes will impact everything. It is a balancing (hur hur) act, but one thing is certain - it's something we are always thinking about, discussing internally, working on. The overall health of the game is something that is ALWAYS on our team’s mind.

6. Marketing. Do more of it. Do less of it. Don't do it.
A: This one is hard to address. We get a ton of conflicting comments. We're a business, so marketing is key and important. Some initiatives are done with the aim to get new people into the franchise, raise awareness with those that have never heard of us, or get existing players talking. Not everything we do hits all three of these categories at once. We get a lot of 'stop doing that, and fix bugs/balance the game' - but the people that work on marketing wouldn't be the ones fixing a bug or balancing a unit to begin with. There are also the comments of 'don't waste money on this garbage, spend it on making new stuff in the game' - but if we only made new stuff and did no marketing... there'd be no new players to make the stuff for. Players often have a contentious relationship with marketing, they both want to see it and hate that it exists. We want to do more of it, because it helps our business grow. We are in the process of building our marketing and brand team, and in 2015 we will be able to DO MORE. Somewhere, someone is going to comment on how they’re sick of me saying this… but what else can I really say? Also, it’s the truth. We are building.

7. NDA's are the worst. Relic is bad and they should feel bad.
A: NDA's are at times a 'necessary evil'. We are not the first to utilize them, we will not be the last. While the trend is moving towards more transparent communication with players, that does not mean NDAs will completely disappear. We have been slowly experimenting where it is safe for us to 'let up' on NDA'd information, and where it is still necessary. Sometimes NDAs are there to ensure unfinished game content doesn’t get broadcast/streamed. A surprising amount of people expect what they see to be finished product and finished product only. In some cases, the use of NDAs also help to ensure that there is press interest when something is finally announced, because it is ‘new information’ and therefore newsworthy.

8. I don't want silly fun stuff, I want information. Stop saying things and TELL ME.
A: we're here to have fun... so there's always going to be some of that. Video games = fun! R…right?
If I'm not able to discuss something for any given reason, I'm not going to go completely radio silent, either. So uh…. You’re stuck with me? Sorry man. War Spoils is a good example of this. Can I tell you more about what’s happening? Not right now. Does that mean I should stop talking to people and that we should stop trying to organize or do other fun things? No.


Why did we not release anything else in December?
A. Because Ardennes Assault was a massive update and a huge undertaking. WFA was a big update and a huge undertaking as well. As a mid-sized studio, this development year was quite a hectic one. I realize people on our forums lean towards multi-player, so many also questioned why we were spending time on AA. There is still a large population of players that prefer single-player – they tend not to be as vocal in forums, but we know they very much exist thanks to the numbers. It was important to continue releasing content, and single-player content is often the best entry to then further entice new people into multi-player.

Updates and releases take time to make, and our team had just finished AA. But in addition to AA they pushed significant updates such as obs mode and modding tools. There’s the fact that releases require extensive testing, and the fact that the majority of our studio is on vacation for the Christmas holiday. Can you imagine how awful it would have been to push out a ‘small thing’ quickly without extensive testing, then have no one around to deal with it if something were to go wrong? Our team also needs to be able to recharge it’s batteries after such a hectic work year.

I think that’s it.

Are we dedicated? Yes. I frequently work on my weekends, or late into the night. I am not the exception to the rule. I get that you are inclined to take that with a grain of salt – but I’m still going to say it anyways, because it’s true.

Thanks for the post Cynthia, good to hear what step of the ESL partnership you guys are working since all we had on that previously was speculation as to what exactly was happening

.....

Post summed up in one Gif.

Why did we not release anything else in December?
A. Because Ardennes Assault was a massive update and a huge undertaking. WFA was a big update and a huge undertaking as well. As a mid-sized studio, this development year was quite a hectic one. I realize people on our forums lean towards multi-player, so many also questioned why we were spending time on AA. There is still a large population of players that prefer single-player – they tend not to be as vocal in forums, but we know they very much exist thanks to the numbers. It was important to continue releasing content, and single-player content is often the best entry to then further entice new people into multi-player.

Updates and releases take time to make, and our team had just finished AA. But in addition to AA they pushed significant updates such as obs mode and modding tools. There’s the fact that releases require extensive testing, and the fact that the majority of our studio is on vacation for the Christmas holiday. Can you imagine how awful it would have been to push out a ‘small thing’ quickly without extensive testing, then have no one around to deal with it if something were to go wrong? Our team also needs to be able to recharge it’s batteries after such a hectic work year.

Yeah, people in the "Community" think that 1v1 (and maybe 2v2) is all that matters.

as far as small team goes, i think your balance and trouble shooting team is too damn small for the game in its current state.

I wrote her off for the tenth time today
And practiced all the things I would say
But she came over, I lost my nerve
I took her back and made her dessert

Now I know I'm being used
That's okay, man, 'cause I like the abuse
I know she's playing with me
That's okay 'cause I got no self esteem

I appreciate your commitment, and the work you do. I think everyone can agree that communication with the community has improved under your stewardship.

Yeah, people in the "Community" think that 1v1 (and maybe 2v2) is all that matters.

And they are correct, because balancing a 4v4 mode without ruining every single other mode is the most complicated thing. Any balance work starts from 1v1 and that's a rule. You can't start math from square root. You start it from 1+1=2.

And they are correct, because balancing a 4v4 mode without ruining every single other mode is the most complicated thing. Any balance work starts from 1v1 and that's a rule. You can't start math from square root. You start it from 1+1=2.

1v1 1+1=2

2v2 2+2=4

3v3 3+3=6

4v4 4+4=8

any "minor" balance issues in 1's and 2's get magnified in 3's and 4's

1v1 1+1=2

2v2 2+2=4

3v3 3+3=6

4v4 4+4=8

any "minor" balance issues in 1's and 2's get magnified in 3's and 4's

So the balance must be close to perfection in 1v1 in order for us to have just some "minor" balance problems in 4v4..... lol.

So the balance must be close to perfection in 1v1 in order for us to have just some "minor" balance problems in 4v4..... lol.

u misunderstand. any minor balance issue in 1's and 2's becomes amplified in larger game modes. due to more players

u misunderstand. any minor balance issue in 1's and 2's becomes amplified in larger game modes. due to more players

He actually did understand with his comment.

We would need 1v1 to be as balanced as possible in order to minimize chaos in larger team games.

And they are correct, because balancing a 4v4 mode without ruining every single other mode is the most complicated thing. Any balance work starts from 1v1 and that's a rule. You can't start math from square root. You start it from 1+1=2.

Sigh

I'm not talking about balance

I'm talking about the fact that the "Community" is predominantly 1v1 players and that their concerns are basically irrelevant to the vast majority of players, many of whom are single player only

Just because AA doesn't appeal to "The Community" doesn't mean doing it or anything like it is a bad idea


If people stopped believing the echo chamber here that revolves around the least popular implementation (1v1) of one the least popular game modes (automatch) and looked at the big picture things would look very different


Balancing 1v1 would be time consuming, hard, not generate immediate revenue and be generally thankless.

Rather than understand that instead we have people acting like Relic working on something like AA that was easier, would make more money and be deliverable in a realistic time frame as it is a personal insult.




Balance pre-WFA was pretty good, and if you compare where we are now relative to where we were when WFA came out we are pretty good - we would roughly be in the same point of the cycle as the UBER TIGER ACE and WINDUSTRY and I dare anyone to tell me that balance is in as bad a place now as it was when.

So I am quite confident that balance will be in an even better state by mid 2015 if not earlier.

^ He is 100% correct: the 1 v 1 Taliban need to learn some humility. They are a tiny fraction of what moves this game on.

...

You know, it's fantastic that we have somebody who cares communicate with us, it really is. I think most people appreciate your input. The issue is with general policy at Relic. Things have changed since Company of Heroes 1 came out. In most of my favourite gaming communities, I can expect developers to regularly address the customers' concerns, to engage with them on the forums, to publish roadmaps and have open betas. The Kicksters and Early Access titles especially have turned up the idea of communicating with the playerbase to 11. If 95% of what we see from Relic is "sorry guys, we can't talk about that yet" or something else along those lines, that does not feel like communication - it feels like token attempt at communication to get those pesky, whining gamers to shut up.

It's of course ridiculous to suggest the devs don't care, and there have been improvements (like your presence and improved patch notes), but there remains the fact that the community doesn't have a clue where the game is heading and many people, including myself, are finding it hard to understand why Relic isn't as open and communicative as many other devs. I understand there is probably very little you can do about this personally, but I hope that you see that as whiny as we can be, those complaints aren't without merit.