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russian armor

artillery and late game squadwipes

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23 Dec 2014, 14:42 PM
#161
avatar of somenbjorn

Posts: 923

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2014, 11:47 AMRupert


Thats why they should introduce a damage cap on aoe damage profiles like they did in Warcraft 3.


In Warcraft 3, the total AOE damage possible by a single source is capped at a certain number.

What I'm suggesting is that AOE damage should be capped per SQUAD.

Example : A Conscript has 6 models of 80 hp each, making it 480 hp. But if the models are clumped, a single 80 damage grenade will wipe it. Lets say we cap the grenade damage to 300. Even if the models are very close, at least 2 would survive. Or maybe 3 would survive with less hp on each model. Calculation can vary, but you get the idea.
If it was a grenadier squad, with effective health of 320, would probably leave a single model with 20 hp by the 80 damage grenade.

Of course this is capped by squad, so if a single shell/grenade hits multiple squads it should deal damage to both squads without being capped.

It might take a step back from realism but with appropriate numbers it shouldn't be that bad, and make the game less prone to RNG-induced stress without touching the anti-blobbing power of AOE weaponry.



And this would fix the basic problem of Axis snowballing infantry, how exactly?


That was my basic theory. The squadwipes from lategame arty (of which allies have plenty) is Relics attempt to minimize the effect of allied (in particular soviet) general purpose infantry falling behind their german counterparts in the lategame and the axis infantry snowballing.

And whilst your suggestion would fix one problem it would cause an even greater, and that in reality we must fix both the issue of snowballing infantry with Vet and Schrecks at the same time as we fix the squadwipes from arty.
23 Dec 2014, 16:21 PM
#162
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

Nerfing Arty to the point where it is no longer able to squad wipes at all will make this unit worthless. The whole point of investing 400+ MP and large popcap is to have a stationary weapon that can do the job of wiping units instead of my army. Even if the arty gets nerfed, you will still have plenty of units for the Axis to squad wipe (KT, Stuka, Tigers, rifle nades). If squad wiping is eliminated from the game entirely than this will become extremely boring. The whole fun factor about COH2 is the unknown!
23 Dec 2014, 23:29 PM
#163
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7



Ekhem, fragmentation bomb can decrew vetted B-4 which is almost equal to losing B4...


you can recrew, repair, and fire again. youre spending 180 munitions to decrew a weapon that the enemy can recrew.

the stuka barrage also only decrews, i dont think ive seen one fully destroy the gun.

i've tried finding all sorts of ways to kill the b4, and the only truly reliable one is using the stuka dive bomb, and when youre in an important game you dont want to be second guessing.
23 Dec 2014, 23:32 PM
#164
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

railway does a decent job.
23 Dec 2014, 23:34 PM
#165
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



you can recrew, repair, and fire again. youre spending 180 munitions to decrew a weapon that the enemy can recrew.

the stuka barrage also only decrews, i dont think ive seen one fully destroy the gun.

i've tried finding all sorts of ways to kill the b4, and the only truly reliable one is using the stuka dive bomb, and when youre in an important game you dont want to be second guessing.


Bellive me, decrewing 2-3 vetted B-4 is almost same pain for soviets like losing it. In late game decrewing B-4 is almost always gg.
23 Dec 2014, 23:52 PM
#166
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Bellive me, decrewing 2-3 vetted B-4 is almost same pain for soviets like losing it. In late game decrewing B-4 is almost always gg.


And now you have some low popcap B4 :D
24 Dec 2014, 00:00 AM
#167
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



And now you have some low popcap B4 :D


Well, that's true, but usually I'm also starving because of MP.
Cons are dying like bugs... :gimpy:
24 Dec 2014, 00:55 AM
#168
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

railway does a decent job.


thats true, but at the same time railway pidgeonholes you into one of two commanders, one with a pak43 and the other with ostruppen. the pak43 one has some potential, but i think elefant + divebomb is superior



Bellive me, decrewing 2-3 vetted B-4 is almost same pain for soviets like losing it. In late game decrewing B-4 is almost always gg.


i want to avoid getting to a point where there is a vet 2-3 b4. infact, i would like to kill a b4 after its 2nd or 3rd shot.
24 Dec 2014, 01:05 AM
#169
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2





i want to avoid getting to a point where there is a vet 2-3 b4. infact, i would like to kill a b4 after its 2nd or 3rd shot.


I would love to kill King Tiger before it wrecks all my infantry or Jadgtiger before it kills my M8 with 1 shot but that's not gonna happen :P
24 Dec 2014, 02:09 AM
#170
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

If your using weapons that decrew a b4 your doing it wrong, you are literally making things easier for your enemy. Iv had games were I had 4 b4's only costing me 12 popcap
24 Dec 2014, 06:09 AM
#171
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3552 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Dec 2014, 09:58 AMHS King


Oh ok - you go to a buit up area in the middle of a warzone in a ww2 tank, open up your "hatch" and see how long you last. Can you imagine the size of the roads in towns in the 1940's and imagine driving a slow, cumbersome and almost blind vehicle in the middle of a warzone.

Sure tanks can engage infantry, but from a distance and in the open field. Most maps in Coh and COH2 are not open fields at all, they are CQB all within range of most AT weapons.

Early tank designs were meant to be anti infantry weapons - but how did they perform against new blitzkreig doctrine where tanks were used to breakthrough a line, go behind and encircle. They used maneuverability and range to overwhelm forces. They were not used like some WW1 style moveable fortress that was meant to engage infantry.

If you don't believe me have a read up on french battle-tanks which were all bigger, more Armour and mroe sophisticated than German counterparts and tell me how well they performed against the nazi invasion.

Tanks however were good against static positions, like bunkers, some dug in positions, mgs, etc but not against mobile squads of men that did not just stand around in the open - like the infantary that is represented in the COH franchise.



You try to avoid sending your tank into a urban area at all if you can avoid it.

But if you have to, then whether you close up or keep the hatches open is dependent upon your personal preference and the opposition

With the hatches down you are much less able to see around you - and in a close battlefield there are lots of places opposition can hide in

With hatches open the commander is risking getting killed, but the chances of losing the whole tank are a lot less because he can see what is going on.


Really however only the British had a doctrine that tanks are supposed to fight tanks. The Germans regarded the primary foe of the tank as the AT Gun and the Americans designed their Tank Destroyer doctrine to counter massed German tank attacks that they thought had happened in 1940.

The Sherman wasn't designed to fight tanks, which is one reason why it was not especially good at it.
24 Dec 2014, 09:20 AM
#172
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

If your using weapons that decrew a b4 your doing it wrong, you are literally making things easier for your enemy. Iv had games were I had 4 b4's only costing me 12 popcap


Your opponent must have been really shitty if he allowed you to have 2400 MP sa soviets
24 Dec 2014, 09:32 AM
#173
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322



and which okw doctrine innately counters b4? none of them do. in fact the only guaranteed way to kill a b4 is with a sturmtiger, which wont happen in most games.


The closest thing that can kill a B4 via offmap is Assault arti (This assumes hes dumb enough to put it near a point)

If not dual Stuka is the way okw clears it. 200+ fuel investment to kill a single 600mp b4.

Also you guys are forgetting something: OST CAS doctrine can clear a B4 for a mere 140 mu.
24 Dec 2014, 09:44 AM
#174
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

4 B4's! Than someone or all of you didn't choose the correct doctrine. 8 CP's+ is still enough time to find the correct counter to a doctrine.

Tiger, howi + stuka dive, stuka + elefant. go on go on. Or go stuka Halftracks (but not too many)
24 Dec 2014, 09:56 AM
#175
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322

Please tell me how a PAK-43 counters a B4? Same with the Ele
24 Dec 2014, 09:57 AM
#176
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

The Pak-43 shouldn't be there. My old love for the joint ops doc is coming up :P
24 Dec 2014, 10:41 AM
#177
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322

The Pak-43 shouldn't be there. My old love for the joint ops doc is coming up :P


I want to like it, Lefh is not worth it. panzerwerfer is just better.
As for the pak there are better pak 43 doctrines like Festung armor.
24 Dec 2014, 11:26 AM
#178
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

That's true, only because of the nerfed LeFH. the 150 damage wasn't the big problem, because it shot 12 times in 1 cooldown, against 8 of the ML-20. Now they have the same amount of shots, has 150 damage difference and if I'm not wrong the LeFH has a worser scatter than the ML-20
24 Dec 2014, 11:28 AM
#179
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322

It has so much scatter i wonder if its bugged.
24 Dec 2014, 11:31 AM
#180
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

Probably, it's almost that Relic intented to make it buggy :'(
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