artillery and late game squadwipes

People should stop viewing squad wipes as nuisance that is not supposed to be in the game. It's the purpose of artillery. Discussion obsolete...

If having a artillery piece decrewed is effectively ending the game, it just goes to show that either that unit is extremely overpowered or the core non doctrinal units are extremely lack luster, or both.

Why not both

If having a artillery piece decrewed is effectively ending the game, it just goes to show that either that unit is extremely overpowered or the core non doctrinal units are extremely lack luster, or both.

B4 is very powerful, yes but it's the only unit you have against vet 5 obers or King Tiger because KV1, T34 and SU85 are almost useless vs OKW late game. That's why losing crew is so hard to swallow.

it's not the only unit you have against obers. maxims can work to pin and there are numerous other options, both doctrinal and not, for dealing damage. they're not all ideal in all circumstances but you have options.

it's not the only unit you have against obers. maxims can work to pin and there are numerous other options, both doctrinal and not, for dealing damage. they're not all ideal in all circumstances but you have options.

Post of the year

Obers wreck maxims before maxims do anything.

Post of the year

Obers wreck maxims before maxims do anything.

Maxims in green cover will beat Obers easily. You also have flamer penals which do well, mortars, snipers and tanks. Sure the KV-1 isn't great against other tanks but it is solid against infantry. Although I do think that Obers could use some nerfing, they're pretty stupid strong (but then again LMG paras are even more stronger than vet 5 Obers).

Anyways I think you're missing the entire point of our argument Australian Magic. When one faction is *forced* into a *doctrinal* counter to your *doctrinal* unit, a flaw exists somewhere that needs addressing. CoH 2 should not be a rock-paper-scissors game of commander selection. The stock armies should have the capability of countering any doctrinal units, with commanders adding to variety based on player's preferences and perhaps the map. This same imbalance can be seen with stuff like the Jagdtiger, although more-so in team-games than 1v1 - if your team doesn't have access to P47... good luck ever killing that JT. Similarly if you don't have access to IS2s or T34/85s as Soviet you're going to have a much harder time dealing with Tigers, although ZiS guns are still solid against them.

Long story short, the B4 should not force a doctrinal counter-pick from your opponent. It just doesn't add up to compelling game play. Furthermore the B4 should NOT have the ability to 1-shot KTs from full hp, let alone anything else that happens to be within a screen's width of that nuclear impact.

We (maybe I should say Relic) have proven in the past that some things simply should not exist within this game as veterency buffs. With regard to the B4 these include - increased damage and decreased barrage cooldown. I'd also make the argument that all precision strikes should be re-worked just like Blitz should be re-worked (it's really freaking stupid when you think about it... what... the tank driver just magically grows rocket boosters or some pudding on the back of the tank? c'mon now... why not like a toggle-able muni cost to increase accuracy for 30 sec or something to use during a big push). But anyways, as I've said - Relic has decided that these types of veterency bonuses simply do not fall in line with the rest of the game mechanics and, numerous times in the past, have been removed because of their overly dramatic impact on game play (alpha rifle vet, katyusha/werfer vet bonuses, ML-20/leFH18 vet bonuses are examples of these principles) - so why then should the B4 be the exception to this rule? The Pack Howi also breaks the mold in this regard and, to not surprise, magically becomes completely stupid when it hits vet 2 (although it sucks for its price before vet 2 so re-working the vet 2 would need compensation in other arenas). Furthermore, while I'm on the topic of the Counterattack doctrine in general - For Mother Russia is completely broken because it adds raw damage - and not raw accuracy to units.

People should stop viewing squad wipes as nuisance that is not supposed to be in the game. It's the purpose of artillery. Discussion obsolete...

You should probably re-read the thread before declaring the discussion obsolete. I'll fill you in. No one here is saying that squad wipes shouldn't ever happen, of course they should. What we're saying is that instances of squads getting wiped from full hp to dead in the blink of an eye, with no way to predict or react that that is going to happen should be extremely limited, if not entirely eliminated. I could maybe stomach losing one full health squad per game to something random like a lucky mortar hit - but when numerous squads are lost with no way for me to react every single game... it just gets old. It mostly hurts Wehr with their 4 man squads, but it can have a major impact on the Allies as well, particularly things like the USF 50cal/AT gun. Soviets get off a bit easier in the "oh shit my pudding just got 1 shot department" because of their 6 man squads, but it can happen even to them. You have to admit that losing something like a vet 3 shock squad in the blink of an eye from full health is just game-breaking - like that one second of bad RNG can literally lose you an entire game.

Now don't get me wrong, as some others seem to have in other posts in this thread, I don't want superman invulnerable infantry or anything. Losing squads SHOULD happen because squad preservation is an important part of separating players in terms of skill - but losing a low model or low health squad to a mortar shot is completely different from losing a full health one - because you as the player have chosen to take the risk of keeping that squad on the front lines.

Post of the year

Obers wreck maxims before maxims do anything.

uh, no.

i've used maxims against obers successfully on several occasions. you have to be careful but it's entirely doable

Maxims in green cover will beat Obers easily. You also have flamer penals which do well, mortars, snipers and tanks. Sure the KV-1 isn't great against other tanks but it is solid against infantry. Although I do think that Obers could use some nerfing, they're pretty stupid strong (but then again LMG paras are even more stronger than vet 5 Obers).

Anyways I think you're missing the entire point of our argument Australian Magic. When one faction is *forced* into a *doctrinal* counter to your *doctrinal* unit, a flaw exists somewhere that needs addressing. CoH 2 should not be a rock-paper-scissors game of commander selection. The stock armies should have the capability of countering any doctrinal units, with commanders adding to variety based on player's preferences and perhaps the map. This same imbalance can be seen with stuff like the Jagdtiger, although more-so in team-games than 1v1 - if your team doesn't have access to P47... good luck ever killing that JT. Similarly if you don't have access to IS2s or T34/85s as Soviet you're going to have a much harder time dealing with Tigers, although ZiS guns are still solid against them.

Long story short, the B4 should not force a doctrinal counter-pick from your opponent. It just doesn't add up to compelling game play. Furthermore the B4 should NOT have the ability to 1-shot KTs from full hp, let alone anything else that happens to be within a screen's width of that nuclear impact.

We (maybe I should say Relic) have proven in the past that some things simply should not exist within this game as veterency buffs. With regard to the B4 these include - increased damage and decreased barrage cooldown. I'd also make the argument that all precision strikes should be re-worked just like Blitz should be re-worked (it's really freaking stupid when you think about it... what... the tank driver just magically grows rocket boosters or some pudding on the back of the tank? c'mon now... why not like a toggle-able muni cost to increase accuracy for 30 sec or something to use during a big push). But anyways, as I've said - Relic has decided that these types of veterency bonuses simply do not fall in line with the rest of the game mechanics and, numerous times in the past, have been removed because of their overly dramatic impact on game play (alpha rifle vet, katyusha/werfer vet bonuses, ML-20/leFH18 vet bonuses are examples of these principles) - so why then should the B4 be the exception to this rule? The Pack Howi also breaks the mold in this regard and, to not surprise, magically becomes completely stupid when it hits vet 2 (although it sucks for its price before vet 2 so re-working the vet 2 would need compensation in other arenas). Furthermore, while I'm on the topic of the Counterattack doctrine in general - For Mother Russia is completely broken because it adds raw damage - and not raw accuracy to units.

Penals, mortars, sniper, maxims. Theoretically all of these units can counter Obers but practically penals will die before reach obers, snipers need huge attention which is sometimes hard in late game, mortars are very rng dependant and maxims need terrain advantage, althogh 4-5 vetted obers can handle them easily.

Why do you think paras are stronger? DPS is similar but veteranscy buffs for Obers are insane.

Relic designed game for doctrinal counters. That's something we have to deal with.
Yet I think before WFA it was quite nice. I mean, you could counter Tiger with SU or IS with Panther, no matter which doctrine you chose. The only problem was with Elephnat because SU85 is useless against Ele and T34 is too weak but if we remove USF and OKW right now, the game would be someplace near to the level when you dont need to pick up doctrinal counter.
Everything have changed since WFA.


Non-doc King Tiger, immune to small fire 5 vet Volks shredding tanks, Obers like terminators, Jadgtiger.
It's really hard to counter such units for Soviets without doctrinal help.
Units like non-doc T34/85 and SU100 would change a lot (t34/76 could be low CP call in and SU85 could be placed in some Anti tank doctrine). But that's not gonna happen.

On the other hand, OKW can counter everything with non-doc units (except arty, although Stuka could do it).

When (if) Relic will fix B-4 pop cap bug, it should solve few issues. Then you could try to counter it with non-doc units like Stuka or PzWerfer.
Other option are reduction of health, decreasing range or something like that.

Yes, I agree it should not kill King Tiger with single shot but it should take more than half health in my opinion.
Maybe instead of +50% it should get +25%? B4 does not shoot with 4-6 shells. There is only 1 so it has to powerful.

I won't argue about Mother Russia since I dont use it often - spamming Huuurah, Molotov and AT nades needs a lot of muni...

B-4 can kill KT in 1 shot only with Mother Russia or Mark Target is also needed?
I don;t rememeber...

B-4 can kill KT in 1 shot only with Mother Russia or Mark Target is also needed?
I don;t rememeber...

vet 3 b4 with FMR on can 1 shot anything short of a okw truck (80% damage)

And here we go again.
People don't want the game fixed/improved cause they are afraid on which order it's gonna be done. And knowing Relic's times, i can understand it.

Ex: let's not fix call in meta, because we can't expect a better performance/timing etc of stock tanks.


Anyways: "Everything changed when the nation of WFA attacked"

Anyways: "Everything changed when the nation of WFA attacked"

Hard to disagree.
There was a time when Grens with LMG were beast and we were thinking how to lower their DPS.
There was a time when Elephnat was untouchable.

And then WFA came out