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russian armor

artillery and late game squadwipes

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19 Dec 2014, 19:12 PM
#21
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

How about the King Tiger one shot Vet 3 AT guns and Rifles?


The KT costs an absurd amount of fuel. Does not shoot across the entire map from inside your base sector. And is counter-able without access to doctrinal abilities (at least as USF - Sov might have a harder time without access to call-ins, but once again this goes back to their broken tech system which I keep harping on). Plus the KT is slow, you can hear where it is going to be before it gets there, and you have a LOT more time to react/prepare.

Yes the KT is strong, but it is far from game-breaking.
19 Dec 2014, 19:47 PM
#22
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Dec 2014, 19:01 PMCieZ


Agreed. I don't want them to become non-existent but maybe we can find a way to introduce more counter-play. Lowering the range of Howis, but decreasing their cost might be a good first step. If you have to build your howi outside of your base sector it then becomes an important unit to attack/defend - just like the PaK 43 can be. You don't need a recon + stuka dive bomb to counter a PaK 43, because it is entirely feasible that your infantry are able to push the position and give you line-of-sight, or de-crew it, or grenade it. If you have access to an AT gun of your own, it can push up and kill the PaK43 outright once you have it de-crewed (or you can re-crew it for yourself). This is of course more difficult with the OKW T4 next to the PaK43, but I think the OKW T4 building is a problem of it's own (I personally think it is too strong right now).



In my opinion you shouldn't be able to build them inside your base but in certain distance from it. Not too close so it's out of range of your base bunkers. Simple and it would allow for easier counter play + you would have to defend it as well.
19 Dec 2014, 19:52 PM
#23
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
u have bs OP obers, immortal luchs and puma.

not to mention the best mobile arty in game with the most hp (stuka)

KT that laughs at most allied AT options.

but yea. lets complain about allied arty wiping my squads because I refuse to stop blobbing.

l2p issues
19 Dec 2014, 20:23 PM
#24
avatar of minimitmit

Posts: 36

u have bs OP obers, immortal luchs and puma.

not to mention the best mobile arty in game with the most hp (stuka)

KT that laughs at most allied AT options.

but yea. lets complain about allied arty wiping my squads because I refuse to stop blobbing.

l2p issues


I think it is not about getting punished for blobbing ( which e.g the katjusha should do and does). It is the RNG involved combined with no counterplay when you get hit by a mortar/arty shell that really stands out. Ost 4 man squads suffer the most. One lucky hit and your squad with vet and upgrades is gone. OKW is less prone to this thanks to Volx being 5 man squads. If you hit a 5-6 man Squad with a Mortar you will not wipe it unless the player ordered them in cover that let them bunch up.
19 Dec 2014, 20:26 PM
#25
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

You heard it, Ciez&Siberian you need to L2P :)

You can't justify a broken, overperforming, overpowered, badly design mechanic/unit comparing it with other units.

-.-.-.-.-.-

Before someone jumps, i'll say that:
-We need a spread out formation button.
-120mm is "fine". 400mp for a slow hardhitting "mortar". PS could use a more distinctive sound.
-Pack Howi only saving grace is it's vet. Can't retreat, expensive to reinforce and get's decrewed really easily.
-Static artillery needs a tweak/overhaul. And starting for not being able to build them inside the base BUT being not so mp risky accounting for this change.

19 Dec 2014, 20:47 PM
#26
avatar of steel

Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1

You heard it, Ciez&Siberian you need to L2P :)

You can't justify a broken, overperforming, overpowered, badly design mechanic/unit comparing it with other units.

-.-.-.-.-.-

Before someone jumps, i'll say that:
-We need a spread out formation button.
-120mm is "fine". 400mp for a slow hardhitting "mortar". PS could use a more distinctive sound.
-Pack Howi only saving grace is it's vet. Can't retreat, expensive to reinforce and get's decrewed really easily.
-Static artillery needs a tweak/overhaul. And starting for not being able to build them inside the base BUT being not so mp risky accounting for this change.

B4 sound for Howitzer? :D
Rekt Howitzer is quite good for its price I think. Maybe a bit too pricy. But it has helped me win fights many times.
19 Dec 2014, 20:53 PM
#27
avatar of HS King

Posts: 331

you can alter the AoE profiles on splash damage weapons with the attribute editor. You don't need target tables at all.

for example I made a change that dramatically reduced the incidence of ISU-152 one shotting full health squads, it still did enough damage however so that the squad couldn't stay around too long however. This change didnt affect the anti-vehicle performance of the unit at all.

Change the near range value to 0.1, mid to 1 and then far to 3 if I remember correctly.

Nacho could also corroborate something along those lines when he was tweaking with the ISU and other explosives, we made Relic aware when I was still in the Alpha test but I think changing the profiles is something they aren't willing to do for whatever reason.


So it is possible to adjust explosive damage on weapons to make sure they dont wipe squads all the time?

Someone needs to create a mod that fixes all these sorts of issues - COH2 could genuinely be a great game then.

Iv been watching the recent tourney and COH2 has improved significantly in the strategy department, but there are still just too many issues with it IMO to make it more than just a "good" game.

It could be great, onlyif someone reworked explosive damage ( from big tanks, nades, arty etc) tweaked inf combat and once again IMO upped the retreat speed and damage modifier or retreating squads.
19 Dec 2014, 20:59 PM
#28
avatar of HS King

Posts: 331

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Dec 2014, 18:05 PMCieZ


That's much easier said than done, especially against good players. They can just move the Katy as soon as they hear the Stuka firing. Good lucky getting Volks that far behind enemy lines. A sneaky puma might work but that relies on not hitting mines or running into a Con squad. Ostheer has better options via a 222 or even a 251 loaded up with 1 sweeper pio and a schrecked up Pgren squad, but it is still extremely dangerous/difficult to properly counter a Katyusha.

The larger issue at play in my opinion is actually the 120mm mortar/Pack howi/B4/ML-20. The fact of the matter is, if you do not have a stuka dive bomb in your team-game, you WILL lose to the B4. You can build the B4 inside your base sector, or so far behind the front lines that is will be effectively impossible to reach. After thorough testing last night the only truly guaranteed B4 kill is flare or recon + stuka dive bomb - other off-maps have the potential to de-crew but not fully kill the gun (although some do sometimes depending on the RNG of the shells landing). Either way it completely pigeon-holes Axis into playing Jaeger Armor, because for whatever reason Luftwaffe Supply is banned in tournaments (I think the fear of feeding OKW fuel for a super fast KT, although I think the B4 is way more game-breaking than luftwaffe supply).

The 120mm mortar out-ranges every other mortar in the game, except the ISG which is absurdly over-priced for its current performance. It has the best AoE profile of every mortar in the game, has a small area in which the barrage ability will scatter, a 6 man crew, precision strike, and can retreat with 1 model alive. It's completely stupid. The only threat to the 120mm is a walking stuka, once again pigeon holing the axis players into spending an exorbitant amount of fuel on a single piece of indirect fire in order to counter your man-power only based mortar, which inevitably leads to being over-run by masses of medium armor.

Pack Howi is mostly an issue with the vet 2 bonus which freaking DOUBLES the damage that it does... I'm not sure why this was ever considered to be a good idea. Relic tested damage increasing Vet on Rifles in the WFA alpha and it was abundantly obvious that units gaining damage with vet completely broke the game - so I honestly have no clue why the B4 and the Pack Howi gain bonus damage.

Spreading your army out against any of these units only minorly reduces the chance of having units instantly die. In my opinion none of these things should have the capability of wiping a full health squad off the face of the map. There's just no counter-play. You hear the B4 start shooting, you can maybe guess the general area in which it is shooting but unless you are able to move everything out of the area between hearing the shot fire, correctly guessing the point at which the shot is coming, and the shot actually landing you will always have a chance of having something die. Also, it is essentially impossible to move everything that quickly out of the area with the way support weapons have to pack up. And during combat you can't predict where a 120mm/Pack howi shell is going to land, eventually you WILL lose squads. I cannot remember a game in which I built a 120 or Pack Howi that didn't 1 shot at least 1 squad, generally I lose track of the number of squads I wipe with these things. Oh the M8 Scott is another big felon in this department.

Anyways, the notion that Player B has to go a specific doctrine in order to counter the doctrine that play A chose is poor design in my opinion. This is true for the B4/ML-20. The notion that indirect fire should have the capability to 1 shot squads with impunity is also poor design in my opinion. I play CoH 2 to satisfy my inner WW 2 nerd as well as try and tactically out-play my opponent. To beat Axis this patch you pretty much just make a couple 120s, bombard any forward truck on cool-down until it is dead. If there are no forward trucks just put the 120s somewhere safe and wait till you hear "We fucked up that squad!" over and over again. It's really dumb. I spent like 5 hours playing 2v2s with Sib as allies yesterday going strictly captain tier with a Pack Howi. Didn't lose a single game. My Pack Howis always 1 shot squads and generally ended games at vet 3 with a disgusting amount of kills.


+1

The way the large mortar is designed is just a joke - it has every advantage but no disadvantage at all. The precision strike ability has to be one of the worst thought out ones in this whole game.

19 Dec 2014, 21:00 PM
#29
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

For some reason i sense another march deployment-esque patch :D



In 1v1 i don't see a big problem with arty at all. If your opponent invests into arty, that means he has less infantry on the field, and you have more, therefore you should be able to overhwelmh him.


Arty is one of the few things that aren't utterly dominated by axis in teams games. The B4 can be countered by stuka dive bomb rather easily, yes , yes you need to choose a doctrine, but so does every soviet player that wants to have a chance of winning.


Besides, it's not that wehrmacht lacks something that needs to be backed up by a doctrine, except in some cases maybe a tiger.


Anyways, before we go on fixing oneshots and things , first let us fix the immortal volk + obers blobs.

And do something to make ostheer not useless vs USF in 1v1.
19 Dec 2014, 21:10 PM
#30
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1708 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Dec 2014, 20:53 PMHS King


Someone needs to create a mod .


you do it
19 Dec 2014, 21:18 PM
#31
avatar of Unshavenbackman

Posts: 680

If arty aint supposed to wipe squads then they should be called baby-arty or the artythatresemblesartybutdontwipesquads. This thread is heading in a direction where we will have a meta that involves 10 volks with shrecks and 10 obers. How I am supposed to counter okwblobs If 120mm, kat, B4, ML-20 and whatelse is mentioned here is nerfed? FFS diversity. Plz close this thread before Relic gets any funny ideas.
19 Dec 2014, 21:19 PM
#32
avatar of steel

Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1

If arty aint supposed to wipe squads then they should be called baby-arty or the artythatresemblesartybutdontwipesquads. This thread is heading in a direction where we will have a meta that involves 10 volks with shrecks and 10 obers. How I am supposed to counter okwblobs If 120mm, kat, B4, ML-20 and whatelse is mentioned here is nerfed? FFS diversity. Plz close this thread before Relic gets any funny ideas.
I know right. I always wonder why people hate these artilleries so much when they have only one use which is fire support. Seems like everyone only wants bullets to deal the killing blow. ;)
19 Dec 2014, 21:29 PM
#33
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

It indeed crazy that people think we should nerf indirect fire when it's pretty much the allies only way to stop the giant volks/obers blob of death.
19 Dec 2014, 23:34 PM
#34
avatar of Fridod

Posts: 38

So... if I drop a 100kg high explosive shell into a very loose cluster of 10-20 guys... you guys are trying to tell me that they shouldn't die immediately?
Or 10kg inbetween smaller and tighter formations?



No comment.
19 Dec 2014, 23:45 PM
#35
avatar of HS King

Posts: 331



you do it


I'm thinking about it - I would need to learn a lot of skills though. But relic sure isnt doing it

Can you point me in the right direction?
19 Dec 2014, 23:47 PM
#36
avatar of HS King

Posts: 331

If arty aint supposed to wipe squads then they should be called baby-arty or the artythatresemblesartybutdontwipesquads. This thread is heading in a direction where we will have a meta that involves 10 volks with shrecks and 10 obers. How I am supposed to counter okwblobs If 120mm, kat, B4, ML-20 and whatelse is mentioned here is nerfed? FFS diversity. Plz close this thread before Relic gets any funny ideas.


Mate arty completely annihilated units in COH but it was done pperfectly - its done horribly in coh2 and is now an issue.

20 Dec 2014, 00:26 AM
#37
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Dec 2014, 23:34 PMFridod
So... if I drop a 100kg high explosive shell into a very loose cluster of 10-20 guys... you guys are trying to tell me that they shouldn't die immediately?
Or 10kg inbetween smaller and tighter formations?



No comment.


please, we're discussing game balance, not what would actually happen in real life. try not to get those two mixed up.
20 Dec 2014, 00:26 AM
#38
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1708 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Dec 2014, 23:45 PMHS King


I'm thinking about it - I would need to learn a lot of skills though. But relic sure isnt doing it

Can you point me in the right direction?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=using+coh2+mod+tools

Anyway I believe the aoe profiles can be adjusted so that the splash damage is higher than currently but the chance to completely wipe a squad is lowered. The result is more consistent performance from aoe weapons and allows the opponent to react better because the output is more consistent.

This line of thought was brought up many times with other issues for example tank vs infantry combat where the main cannon damage would be reduced across the board vs infantry and the tank MGs buffed up to compensate which gives the tank more constant and manageable damage output vs infantry making it easier for players to judge when to pull their infantry out.





20 Dec 2014, 00:39 AM
#39
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

only agree with demo and b4. one good demo can change the game and it is given freely to allies. b4 is such a dice roll and with luck, you can turn the game around in a second. that doesn't seem right.

all the other problems, i think elchino's spread out function can help.

+1 to spread out.
20 Dec 2014, 00:43 AM
#40
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

im all for lowering damage increasing aoe, but it needs to be really thoroughly tested. i can already see situations where indirect fire will be so strong since theyre CONTINUOUSLY firing. thats the great benefit of having mortars/scotts/packhowitzers is that theyre always shooting. thats constant long range damage being dealt, which i can see being really overpowered in situations.
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