artillery and late game squadwipes

I mostly play 2v2 as Okw my mate plays OH oder OKW
here my stats http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/viewBoard/2/steamid/76561197985993350
What i know about coh is unit preservation is important. (i played coh1 a lot)
Allies are strong in the early game and Axis in the lategame. (more or less)

In most games my mate and i do fairly well and reach the lategame with a good amout of units.
But as soon as a katyusha hit's the field we loose squads like crazy.
The first 4 rockets easily wipe full health vet 5 squdas.
ISU is a little rare after the last patch so i won't comment on it.
IS2 also wipes a lot of squads.
Scott is also somewhat dangerous and whipes a squad now and then.
120mm morter
B4 morter
152mm arty? (not played much)
demo charge
incendiary arty (kills all team weapons)
Pries (also rarely seen)


In the end we loose most of or vet squdas and loose.
Allies rarly loose squads to arty (even stuka is wiping a lot less than katyusha)

So is this intended?
Am i just to slow/wrong tatic/l2p issue?
Or is Allied arty overperforming agaisnt 4-5 man squads?

Chiro

What's a morter?

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Right now arty pieces wiping whole squads are the only efficient means to counter axis blobs.

What's a morter?

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Yeah it's a learn-to-play-without-blobbing issue.

This is more of a l2p issue, basing of your stats and playing okw.

I wouldn't say the units you mentioned above are over performing , but relic changed the way units would take cover and you got a lot of 4-5 man squad standing over each other. This makes it incredibly easy for thing like scotty , sherman He shell , to one shot your squad.

What id suggest is to keep an eye on how your squad are set, if you see that they are all bunch up on one point try to move them so they are not all standing on 1-2 models (especially when scooty is around) that thing is crazy.

You guys are pretty quick to call this a strictly l2p issue but I think the problem is rooted much deeper than that. I have been experiencing the same issues as the OP in 2v2s as Axis recently.

Early game will be pretty fine with MGs/Kubel supporting Grens/Volks allowing us to at least hold our side of the map. Light vehicles come and can be annoying but are generally counter-able, but once the 120s/pack howis/scotts and other indirect fire units get rolling the game just goes downhill fast. I've actually lost 6 vet 3 LMG gren squads to complete 1-shots in a single game. That's just ridiculous and game-breaking.

Anyways, I don't have a ton of time at the moment to go into it but Ostheer 4 man squads have been a problem since the beginning of CoH 2, they've always been prone to being 1-shot and there have been threads about it before, this isn't anything new really. The problem has just been exacerbated by the new squad cover behavior - which is cool in general. I just wish there was a way to toggle your squad to spread out, for when you know they have indirect fire raining down on you. I mean... even AoE 2 had this option like 15 years ago...

Personally, I'd prefer it if all AOE weapons had their radius increased significantly and their damage reduced drastically.

And as a rule, I would aim to reduce the damage of AOE weapons so they never wipe a full health infantry model (except some of the call-in arty).

Personally, I'd prefer it if all AOE weapons had their radius increased significantly and their damage reduced drastically.

And as a rule, I would aim to reduce the damage of AOE weapons so they never wipe a full health infantry model (except some of the call-in arty).

Yeah, the only problem with that is that because CoH 2 doesn't use targetting tables, if AoE weapons like the 152mm howi/leFH 18 were to do a low amount of damage in order to prevent them from 1 shotting infantry squads, they'd also be useless against vehicles.

I guess you could sort of get around that by making their penetration effectively zero, and then adding some amount of "deflection" damage.

But yeah, 1 shots are happening way too often - especially this patch.

What's a morter?

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mortar

Yeah, the only problem with that is that because CoH 2 doesn't use targetting tables, if AoE weapons like the 152mm howi/leFH 18 were to do a low amount of damage in order to prevent them from 1 shotting infantry squads, they'd also be useless against vehicles.

You could keep the damage high on direct hits and just make it fall off quickly. It'll still annihilate clumped units but that's obviously intentional.

you can alter the AoE profiles on splash damage weapons with the attribute editor. You don't need target tables at all.

for example I made a change that dramatically reduced the incidence of ISU-152 one shotting full health squads, it still did enough damage however so that the squad couldn't stay around too long however. This change didnt affect the anti-vehicle performance of the unit at all.

Change the near range value to 0.1, mid to 1 and then far to 3 if I remember correctly.

Nacho could also corroborate something along those lines when he was tweaking with the ISU and other explosives, we made Relic aware when I was still in the Alpha test but I think changing the profiles is something they aren't willing to do for whatever reason.

you can alter the AoE profiles on splash damage weapons with the attribute editor. You don't need target tables at all.

for example I made a change that dramatically reduced the incidence of ISU-152 one shotting full health squads, it still did enough damage however so that the squad couldn't stay around too long however. This change didnt affect the anti-vehicle performance of the unit at all.

Change the near range value to 0.1, mid to 1 and then far to 3 if I remember correctly.

Nacho could also corroborate something along those lines when he was tweaking with the ISU and other explosives, we made Relic aware when I was still in the Alpha test but I think changing the profiles is something they aren't willing to do for whatever reason.

Right, so let's say we do something like that for the ML-20 152 mm Soviet howi. Wouldn't the shell have to more or less land on the tank for the tank to take any sort of damage, given then the AoE profile was dramatically reduced in size?

Right now I think as long as the shell lands close-ish to the tank, the tank will take damage based on how far away the impact is - or maybe it only works that way with the B4? Don't see too many ML-20s these days. Just looking for some clarification.

Anti vehicle performance wont be affected. Vehicles still have to take a direct hit to get the full 300 dmg applied.

Right now I think as long as the shell lands close-ish to the tank, the tank will take damage based on how far away the impact is - or maybe it only works that way with the B4? Don't see too many ML-20s these days. Just looking for some clarification.

All explosives work like that.



The black dot (0) is full damage zone, so lets say the weapon deals 300 on direct hits, the red zone ends at a set ingame range unit and the damage drops down to a portion of the full damage which can be set in AE, so the damage drops off from full to a percentage you set linearly, the same for the yellow zone and the green zone.

End of the green zone signifies end of the splash, you can use AE to change the width of these zones and also how much damage occurs, dont forget that vehicles have much large hurtboxes and also splash damage generally has high penetration values so a vehicle will always take some damage

The post seems a bit disillusioned on what its adressing. "Artillery" seems to mean something that wipes squads. But all squadwipes in this game is done by actual units. So if the post is about the katyusha, you can counter it with a puma, volksblob or a stuka. If you dont, there will be squadwipes.

The post seems a bit disillusioned on what its adressing. "Artillery" seems to mean something that wipes squads. But all squadwipes in this game is done by actual units. So if the post is about the katyusha, you can counter it with a puma, volksblob or a stuka. If you dont, there will be squadwipes.

That's much easier said than done, especially against good players. They can just move the Katy as soon as they hear the Stuka firing. Good lucky getting Volks that far behind enemy lines. A sneaky puma might work but that relies on not hitting mines or running into a Con squad. Ostheer has better options via a 222 or even a 251 loaded up with 1 sweeper pio and a schrecked up Pgren squad, but it is still extremely dangerous/difficult to properly counter a Katyusha.

The larger issue at play in my opinion is actually the 120mm mortar/Pack howi/B4/ML-20. The fact of the matter is, if you do not have a stuka dive bomb in your team-game, you WILL lose to the B4. You can build the B4 inside your base sector, or so far behind the front lines that is will be effectively impossible to reach. After thorough testing last night the only truly guaranteed B4 kill is flare or recon + stuka dive bomb - other off-maps have the potential to de-crew but not fully kill the gun (although some do sometimes depending on the RNG of the shells landing). Either way it completely pigeon-holes Axis into playing Jaeger Armor, because for whatever reason Luftwaffe Supply is banned in tournaments (I think the fear of feeding OKW fuel for a super fast KT, although I think the B4 is way more game-breaking than luftwaffe supply).

The 120mm mortar out-ranges every other mortar in the game, except the ISG which is absurdly over-priced for its current performance. It has the best AoE profile of every mortar in the game, has a small area in which the barrage ability will scatter, a 6 man crew, precision strike, and can retreat with 1 model alive. It's completely stupid. The only threat to the 120mm is a walking stuka, once again pigeon holing the axis players into spending an exorbitant amount of fuel on a single piece of indirect fire in order to counter your man-power only based mortar, which inevitably leads to being over-run by masses of medium armor.

Pack Howi is mostly an issue with the vet 2 bonus which freaking DOUBLES the damage that it does... I'm not sure why this was ever considered to be a good idea. Relic tested damage increasing Vet on Rifles in the WFA alpha and it was abundantly obvious that units gaining damage with vet completely broke the game - so I honestly have no clue why the B4 and the Pack Howi gain bonus damage.

Spreading your army out against any of these units only minorly reduces the chance of having units instantly die. In my opinion none of these things should have the capability of wiping a full health squad off the face of the map. There's just no counter-play. You hear the B4 start shooting, you can maybe guess the general area in which it is shooting but unless you are able to move everything out of the area between hearing the shot fire, correctly guessing the point at which the shot is coming, and the shot actually landing you will always have a chance of having something die. Also, it is essentially impossible to move everything that quickly out of the area with the way support weapons have to pack up. And during combat you can't predict where a 120mm/Pack howi shell is going to land, eventually you WILL lose squads. I cannot remember a game in which I built a 120 or Pack Howi that didn't 1 shot at least 1 squad, generally I lose track of the number of squads I wipe with these things. Oh the M8 Scott is another big felon in this department.

Anyways, the notion that Player B has to go a specific doctrine in order to counter the doctrine that play A chose is poor design in my opinion. This is true for the B4/ML-20. The notion that indirect fire should have the capability to 1 shot squads with impunity is also poor design in my opinion. I play CoH 2 to satisfy my inner WW 2 nerd as well as try and tactically out-play my opponent. To beat Axis this patch you pretty much just make a couple 120s, bombard any forward truck on cool-down until it is dead. If there are no forward trucks just put the 120s somewhere safe and wait till you hear "We fucked up that squad!" over and over again. It's really dumb. I spent like 5 hours playing 2v2s with Sib as allies yesterday going strictly captain tier with a Pack Howi. Didn't lose a single game. My Pack Howis always 1 shot squads and generally ended games at vet 3 with a disgusting amount of kills.

You guys are pretty quick to call this a strictly l2p issue but I think the problem is rooted much deeper than that. I have been experiencing the same issues as the OP in 2v2s as Axis recently.

Early game will be pretty fine with MGs/Kubel supporting Grens/Volks allowing us to at least hold our side of the map. Light vehicles come and can be annoying but are generally counter-able, but once the 120s/pack howis/scotts and other indirect fire units get rolling the game just goes downhill fast. I've actually lost 6 vet 3 LMG gren squads to complete 1-shots in a single game. That's just ridiculous and game-breaking.

Anyways, I don't have a ton of time at the moment to go into it but Ostheer 4 man squads have been a problem since the beginning of CoH 2, they've always been prone to being 1-shot and there have been threads about it before, this isn't anything new really. The problem has just been exacerbated by the new squad cover behavior - which is cool in general. I just wish there was a way to toggle your squad to spread out, for when you know they have indirect fire raining down on you. I mean... even AoE 2 had this option like 15 years ago...

I did come to pretty much same conclusion.
Maybe my 1v1 play isn't at the top level but I find OKW to struggle against indirect fire.
That being said however I don't think we should nerf these type units only because OKW has hard time dealing with them. I'd be incline towards different approach.

How about the King Tiger one shot Vet 3 AT guns and Rifles?

That's much easier said than done, especially against good players. They can just move the Katy as soon as they hear the Stuka firing. Good lucky getting Volks that far behind enemy lines. A sneaky puma might work but that relies on not hitting mines or running into a Con squad. Ostheer has better options via a 222 or even a 251 loaded up with 1 sweeper pio and a schrecked up Pgren squad, but it is still extremely dangerous/difficult to properly counter a Katyusha.

The larger issue at play in my opinion is actually the 120mm mortar/Pack howi/B4/ML-20. The fact of the matter is, if you do not have a stuka dive bomb in your team-game, you WILL lose to the B4. You can build the B4 inside your base sector, or so far behind the front lines that is will be effectively impossible to reach. After thorough testing last night the only truly guaranteed B4 kill is flare or recon + stuka dive bomb - other off-maps have the potential to de-crew but not fully kill the gun (although some do sometimes depending on the RNG of the shells landing). Either way it completely pigeon-holes Axis into playing Jaeger Armor, because for whatever reason Luftwaffe Supply is banned in tournaments (I think the fear of feeding OKW fuel for a super fast KT, although I think the B4 is way more game-breaking than luftwaffe supply).

The 120mm mortar out-ranges every other mortar in the game, except the ISG which is absurdly over-priced for its current performance. It has the best AoE profile of every mortar in the game, has a small area in which the barrage ability will scatter, a 6 man crew, precision strike, and can retreat with 1 model alive. It's completely stupid. The only threat to the 120mm is a walking stuka, once again pigeon holing the axis players into spending an exorbitant amount of fuel on a single piece of indirect fire in order to counter your man-power only based mortar, which inevitably leads to being over-run by masses of medium armor.

Pack Howi is mostly an issue with the vet 2 bonus which freaking DOUBLES the damage that it does... I'm not sure why this was ever considered to be a good idea. Relic tested damage increasing Vet on Rifles in the WFA alpha and it was abundantly obvious that units gaining damage with vet completely broke the game - so I honestly have no clue why the B4 and the Pack Howi gain bonus damage.

Spreading your army out against any of these units only minorly reduces the chance of having units instantly die. In my opinion none of these things should have the capability of wiping a full health squad off the face of the map. There's just no counter-play. You hear the B4 start shooting, you can maybe guess the general area in which it is shooting but unless you are able to move everything out of the area between hearing the shot fire, correctly guessing the point at which the shot is coming, and the shot actually landing you will always have a chance of having something die. Also, it is essentially impossible to move everything that quickly out of the area with the way support weapons have to pack up. And during combat you can't predict where a 120mm/Pack howi shell is going to land, eventually you WILL lose squads. I cannot remember a game in which I built a 120 or Pack Howi that didn't 1 shot at least 1 squad, generally I lose track of the number of squads I wipe with these things. Oh the M8 Scott is another big felon in this department.

Anyways, the notion that Player B has to go a specific doctrine in order to counter the doctrine that play A chose is poor design in my opinion. This is true for the B4/ML-20. The notion that indirect fire should have the capability to 1 shot squads with impunity is also poor design in my opinion. I play CoH 2 to satisfy my inner WW 2 nerd as well as try and tactically out-play my opponent. To beat Axis this patch you pretty much just make a couple 120s, bombard any forward truck on cool-down until it is dead. If there are no forward trucks just put the 120s somewhere safe and wait till you hear "We fucked up that squad!" over and over again. It's really dumb. I spent like 5 hours playing 2v2s with Sib as allies yesterday going strictly captain tier with a Pack Howi. Didn't lose a single game. My Pack Howis always 1 shot squads and generally ended games at vet 3 with a disgusting amount of kills.

I watched some of your stream yesterday and as Siberian is a player who tends to use only the strongest units in a patch I think its quite telling that he didnt use the 120mm, only the T85s. And to imply that the ML-20 is Op, a underused unit, is going up the wrong alley in a strange direction. The result you got from your games with Siberian yesterday has more to do with the matchmaker than anything else.

I did come to pretty much same conclusion.
Maybe my 1v1 play isn't at the top level but I find OKW to struggle against indirect fire.
That being said however I don't think we should nerf these type units only because OKW has hard time dealing with them. I'd be incline towards different approach.

Agreed. I don't want them to become non-existent but maybe we can find a way to introduce more counter-play. Lowering the range of Howis, but decreasing their cost might be a good first step. If you have to build your howi outside of your base sector it then becomes an important unit to attack/defend - just like the PaK 43 can be. You don't need a recon + stuka dive bomb to counter a PaK 43, because it is entirely feasible that your infantry are able to push the position and give you line-of-sight, or de-crew it, or grenade it. If you have access to an AT gun of your own, it can push up and kill the PaK43 outright once you have it de-crewed (or you can re-crew it for yourself). This is of course more difficult with the OKW T4 next to the PaK43, but I think the OKW T4 building is a problem of it's own (I personally think it is too strong right now).

The mortars/pack howi should just get an AoE profile over-haul, but maybe an accuracy increase. This way they'd still do their job of inflicting bleed/assaulting fortified positions - but would (hopefully/given the right numbers) not just erase squads with impunity. The 120mm seriously needs some more draw-backs though, even if it has to be reduced in cost to compensate.

I watched some of your stream yesterday and as Siberian is a player who tends to use only the strongest units in a patch I think its quite telling that he didnt use the 120mm, only the T85s. And to imply that the ML-20 is Op, a underused unit, is going up the wrong alley in a strange direction. The result you got from your games with Siberian yesterday has more to do with the matchmaker than anything else.

I'm not sure there was ever a need for him to have gone for 120s, because I already had the Pack Howi available. Too much indirect fire can be counter-productive because you then lose the ability to hold the line.

I think the only reason the ML-20 is under-used is because the doctrines that it is located in are simply not attractive. Shock Army is probably the only viable ML-20 doctrine, and even that is risky without call-in tanks (Sov/Ost tech system is truly awful at the moment when compared to USF/OKW tech structure which is why Sov/Ost have to crutch on call-ins to compete). Plus it is overshadowed by the obviously over-performing B4 (which is located in a strong doctrine). The ML-20 probably isn't outright overpowered in the same way that the B4 is, but if you do not have a counter to it (aka you better hope you picked a commander with a stuka dive bomb), you will probably lose.

I'd like to promote less reliance on doctrinal abilities to counter doctrinal abilities. The same can be said about the OKW PaK 43/T4 combo. You damn well better have some sort of way to kill that PaK 43 that doesn't involve your infantry or you're going to be hurting. The only difference being that the PaK 43 doesn't have as insane of a range as howitzers and it only 1 shots the lighest of vehicles. (Don't get me wrong though, PAK 43 next to med truck/T4 is completely stupid/broken)