Heavy call-ins, a much debated subject. Possible solution

Hi guys, I read all these call-ins related topics and I saw that the majority of people are quite unhappy about call-in system. So I'll just state one idea (not entirely mine, because some of you came with it before me, but I'll try to develop it a little more):
Many of you guys came with different (more or less viable) solutions, like fuel upkeep for heavy call-ins, increase the required CPs number, mandatory T3 or T4 build which will unlock the actual call-in, limit heavy tanks to only one at a time, and so on.
Well I think that in order not to affect the gameplay or balance, the chosen solution must be as less radical as possible.

I see this matter related not necessarily to the number of heavy tanks that can be used at one moment on the battlefield, but rather linked to the circumstances in which you can use the heavy call in abilities, mixed with the balance concept.
Ok, so let’s take the ability that every faction - in some doctrines (except USF) - has : “call the x heavy tank” or “call the y heavy tank destroyer”. The idea is, once you used this ability, not to be able to use it again, as long as your heavy call-in is alive on the battlefield. The ability will unlock – if you have the resources of course – only after your heavy was destroyed.

Why am I saying that I see this more related to the call-in ability than the number of heavies?
There are some issues:
- Soviets have doctrines that involves 2 T34/85s. So such a player should be able to use this ability only when both 85s are destroyed.
- Soviets have doctrines that involves Kv 8 and IS2. Both tanks should be allowed to be present on the field, one of each
- Soviets have a doctrine that involves IS2 and T34/85 call ins in the same doctrine. Both 85s and the IS2 should be allowed to be present on the field. If IS2 is destroyed, the player can call it again. If both T34/85 are destroyed, the player can call them again.
- KTs are not doctrinal. So the limitation must work in the same way, but in this case referring to KT building ability. As long as KT is alive, you shouldn’t be allowed to build another.

What about USF? You will ask, they have no heavies. Well, what is harder to fight against with your Ats/jaksons/M10s? An opponent which will use a Tiger and 2-3 pz4s or an opponent which use 2-3 Tigers?

Ok, let’s say we implemented this in the game. It won’t be enough. Let’s not forget heavies have their counters. These should also be limited. And I’m not referring only at dedicated counters, but also at more generalist counters. For instance:
- Player can only build ONE Pak 43 and is able to build another only if the first is destroyed/decrewed;
- Player can only build ONE B4 and is able to build another if the first is destroyed/decrewed.

This won’t affect 1v1 games and will help 2v2 and especially above 2v2 games to be more interesting and, I’m sure, more balanced. A player will not be able to call 2-3 KT, ISU, Jagditgers, Elefants any more. I think this is ruining the game, the number of heavies that a player actually can call or build. Just do the simple math: first player build 2 Elefants, the second player build 3 Tigers and the third, 2 KTs. Hell on earth, isn’t it?

By denying the heavies call in or build ability if the call in is still alive on the field and limiting the build of heavie’s counters, the effects will be:
- The player will be obliged to actually build T3 or T4 or both, because he will not be able to relay only on call-ins at that level (you will not be able to have 2 or three or more on the battlefield).
- This way a heavy will become in fact a support for your armored force, not the armored force.
- The game will look much more diversified, and the armored force will be composed from more diversified units, requesting new tactics. T3 and T4 will be used more.
- Underused units will have a chance.
- Squadwipes won’t have such occurrence
- Super-weapons won’t have such impact on the game as before (B4, Pak 43). They will become more important, and their smart positioning will become even more important.

Yeah, decrewed. You can burn your own crew with flamethrowers and build another PAK43/B4. We already know that opportunity.

1- Remove fuel/munition income from neutral points and put back a small income aera (+5) and a large one (+8)
2- Reduce any stock units / tiers upgrade fuel price by 10-20% to not make the game too slow. reduce any abilities munition price by 10-20% as well.

Result:

No army will be viable to turtule enough to wait for calls-in units. Stock units will become far more critical to success.

An alternate solution would be increase the cost of the heavies, and you get a discount from teching.

E.g.

Incease cost of Tiger by 50 fuel.

T3 unlock gives 20 fuel discount
T4 unlock gives 30 fuel discount

These figures are totally arbitrary, obviously. But conceptually, it would make tiering more economically viable. Similar things would apply to other factions. If you want to stick at T2, that's fine, but it's going to delay your first tiger somewhat and make each subsequent one more expensive.

Not a Bad idea but I still prefer limiting the amount of heavy tanks in the field. If you can only have 1 Heavy tank you will be forced to tech and build other tanks.

The problem now is that you can spam heavy tanks and you can save up fuel by not teching and keep spamming heavies. And we all know that the ratio Performance/Cost is much higher on heavies. Not to talk about the risk of loosing them, you can risk much more with a heavy, not as medium tanks that can be ambushed and destroyed fast.

Just have fuel upkeep

problem solved

Just have fuel upkeep

problem solved

this. fuel upkeep is more radical but if implemented correctly, i believe it could improve the game as whole AND fix this heavy call in problem.

i would just to tie it to tech structures

i would just to tie it to tech structures

In larger games this won't help to much. It would have the same effect as delaying it using CPs. There will be players who will build tiers just to unlock heavies. They will come later, but they will still be buildable in quantities more than one.
Fuel upkeep, to complicated, tbh.
As I said in my opening post, I support the "allowed one at the time only" idea. That's not so new, the concept can be found in vCoh also. Situations in which you will see two samples of the same heavy on the field would be just in team games, IF your partner/s will chose the same doctrine as you did, or the other doctrine that has it. That would limit their choices though, and they wouldn't like it. Even so, in team games you won't relay on one Tiger, one Elefant or one IS2 for instance. You will be forced to build other tanks too, with the consequence of having a combined armored force.

I think arbitrary limits remove strategic depth from the game. Tying It to tech makes different factions suffer disproprtiately.

I think redressing the manpower tech costs for ostheer and making soviet t3/4 vehicles more viable in the lategame would be a better first step. Alot of games it can be worth it to tech but as soviets its very hard to win with t34s with 80-120 penetration vs tigers with 300 armor or kt with 425 armor panther with 320.

1 pak? do you want to destroy this game?

I don't like this idea at all. It will boost Germans and nerf Soviets as they really on numbers and call-ins. German player will call in Tiger Ace and I will be limited to 2 T-34/85? Just lol.
Or German player will build 3 Panthers while i will be limited to 1 IS-2 and forced to use useless T-34/76? No thx I will rather quit CoH2 at all then.

What next? Limit conscripts to 2 squads max?

I don't like this idea at all. It will boost Germans and nerf Soviets as they really on numbers and call-ins. German player will call in Tiger Ace and I will be limited to 2 T-34/85? Just lol.

Or to "just" an IS2. Or an ISU. Your choice.

Or German player will build 3 Panthers while i will be limited to 1 IS-2 and forced to use useless T-34/76?

Or to 1 IS-2 plus Su-85s. Your choice again.

What next? Limit conscripts to 2 squads max?

This is not a "boost Axis, nurf soviets" tread.

1 pak? do you want to destroy this game?

Please, don't tell me you base your strategy on several PAK 43s because I won't believe you.

I support the limiting of heavy tanks to one per player at time, but I know there will always be people who state it will take away some strategies from game (at least that´s what they say), when, in fact, it adds more strategies not involving heavy tanks.

One point to discuss though is, if and how it should affect medium tank call-ins. I think as long as you can make unlimited panthers, you should also be able to call in unlimited t34-75, kv1, kv8 and sherman e8. But maybe in the case of t34-85, since they perform pretty well, you could only have like three of them on the field at any given time, so you would have to lose at least one to be able to call in the next ones.

I support the limiting of heavy tanks to one per player at time, but I know there will always be people who state it will take away some strategies from game (at least that´s what they say), when, in fact, it adds more strategies not involving heavy tanks.

One point to discuss though is, if and how it should affect medium tank call-ins. I think as long as you can make unlimited panthers, you should also be able to call in unlimited t34-75, kv1, kv8 and sherman e8. But maybe in the case of t34-85, since they perform pretty well, you could only have like three of them on the field at any given time, so you would have to lose at least one to be able to call in the next ones.

I see what you mean. While I would keep the initial idea related to T34/85 (no more than 2 at a time), and KV-8 (which is an infantry eater), I think the limitation should not afect KV-1 and Easy 8s. Note that I only wrote about "heavy" call-ins. Speaking of which, for me, 2 x T34/85 = 1 heavy call in, roughly speaking.

At the moment you say "that unit is limited but not that one", it only generates more balancing issues.

The best ojective to balance those units is to delay the moment they hit the field.
It will be more complicated for any players to call ins 2 ISU or 2 Jag if already the 1st one you get is when you hit 50 victory points left before your defeat.
What is important is to give enough room - and by room I mean time to be effective - to medium tanks.
I can ensure you that if you are completely pushed back by medium tanks and still have to wait 5 minutes to get your Jag/ISU and only have 50 victory points left, you'll have to take decisions and buy some med tanks if you want to come back.

Now there are several options to do that, up to Relic to see what is the best one.

u that if you are completely pushed back by medium tanks and still have to wait 5 minutes to get your Jag/ISU and only have 50 victory points left, you'll have to take decisions and buy some med tanks if you want to come back.

I would agree with you if I wouldn't have seen so many battles won from bellow 5 tickets just because the other player called a KT, for instance .

I would agree with you if I wouldn't have seen so many battles won from bellow 5 tickets just because the other player called a KT, for instance .

KT is a stock unit. Having it so fast is linked to another OKW specific issue - AI,AT infantry too effective to spend fuel in med tanks.

I agree, CoH 1 had units limits, why can't coh 2 have it too ?

Also, I think pop cap tyed to territory should return, that would nerf blobs a lot.