Fury Movie! Tiger vs Sherman
3 Dec 2014, 18:45 PM
#81
Posts: 144
War is not a duel of tank. Ofc, a Tiger would win in a 1v1 scenario (when they would not break), but is not only that.
3 Dec 2014, 18:51 PM
#82
Posts: 1484
Germans lost the war and paid dearly for it, all their Tigers, Panthers, Lions and cats were destroyed or stolen. Stop complaining about a movie because every country (German & Russian) show movies like this. History is written by the victor!
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3 Dec 2014, 18:53 PM
#83
Posts: 978
Sorry, but tanks like the Tiger and Tiger 2 were ridiculous and over-engineered designs that hurt their war effort more than it helped. They should have listened to Guderian sooner and reverse engineered the T34.
Best tanks of the war were the IS-2, T34-85 and Panther.
The good old Russian logic...
Fight a guy who is armed with a pistol with 10 guys using shovels. Guy with the pistol will shoot seven guys until his magazine is empty. The remaining shovel guys finish him off. Conclusion: Shovel > Pistol.
3 Dec 2014, 18:55 PM
#84
Posts: 578
It's interesting tho, in 1943 that was the year when the "super tanks" like the tiger I and panther stepped in, yet german losses during that year almost tripled.
In 1943 soviets had there highest tank losses. Tank warfare became more important in 1943. Soviets had more and more tanks that the outnumbered german tanks had to face. Because of a new Situation in 1943 german tanks had to face different missions than in 1941 or 1942.
3 Dec 2014, 19:47 PM
#85
Posts: 692
The good old Russian logic...
Fight a guy who is armed with a pistol with 10 guys using shovels. Guy with the pistol will shoot seven guys until his magazine is empty. The remaining shovel guys finish him off. Conclusion: Shovel > Pistol.
And then those guys with shovels crush your army and take control of half your country for 50 years.
Who's the fool again?
3 Dec 2014, 19:51 PM
#86
Posts: 978
The guys with the shovels. They were pretty much sacrificed...
And then those guys with shovels crush your army and take control of half your country for 50 years.
Who's the fool again?
3 Dec 2014, 19:56 PM
#87
Posts: 578
The good old Russian logic...
Fight a guy who is armed with a pistol with 10 guys using shovels. Guy with the pistol will shoot seven guys until his magazine is empty. The remaining shovel guys finish him off. Conclusion: Shovel > Pistol.
Exactly....
Also i dont know why so many People always say that tigers had no chances against IS-2 or T-34:
Combat history of the "schwere panzerabteilung 509":
6 March 1945: Several IS-2 that are dug in near Seregelyes cannot be neutralized by the Panthers at a distance at 2000 meters and the attack bock down. 2 Tigers knock out 6 IS-2s and move the attack Forward again. The tanks have to wait in front of the damaged railway Bridge near janosmajor until it is repaired.
13 march 1945: Attack to the east with Kampfgruppe bradel between Velenczefürdö and tükröspuszta. the attack hits 24 dug-in ISU-152s covering a minefield. All 16 Tigers receive severe battle damage(3 total losses). After Clearing some passages throught the minefield , 2 Tigers seize the strongpoint knocking out all 24 ISU-152s.
24 march 1945: Continuation of delaying Actions across the ridge between mano mjr. and Istvannyr on the road balatonkenese-vesprem. Defensive positions on the last ridgeline on the northwest side of lake Balaton. Several tank attacks are repelled. Evasive movement to csopak. A total of 8 T-34s and 8 IS-2s are knocked out. 3 Tiger tanks are total losses.
"Schwere panzerabteilung 507" Western front against the us Forces:
18 April 1945: the Crew of Oberfeldwebel weller was "captured" by soldiers from SS-panzer-Brigade "westfalen" and were ordered to employ an abandoned Tiger II of schwere panzerabteilung 507.They covered the bode valley for several hours, knocking out a couple of US tanks.
"Schwere Panzerabteilung 510" on the western front against the US army.
6 december 1944: The tiger Company knocks out 11 sherman tanks from the US army. 2 bogged down tigers have to be blown up. the Autobahn Bridge near birkesdorf is blown up by using 15 borgward IV charges.
"schwere panzerabteilung 507" at Hamborn:
30 march 1945: The "schwere panzerabteilung 507" had a duel with the "Task force welborn" of the 3rd US Armored Division. Taskforce welborn was almost completely destroyed by Tiger II and a few Tiger I tanks. At that day the "Task force welborn" lost 17 sherman tanks, 17 halftrucks and numerous other vehicles. Major General Maurice Rose, the commander of the US 3rd armored Division, was hit and killed by a king tiger during the battle.
From the book "Tigers in Combat" by Wolfgang Schneider.
Not bad for such a fail design.......
3 Dec 2014, 20:09 PM
#88
Posts: 692
From the book "Tigers in Combat" by Wolfgang Schneider.
lol, so if I start quoting a book called "Ural Steel" by Aleksei Federov or some shit, are you really going to take that at face value?
You guys crack me up.
3 Dec 2014, 20:13 PM
#89
Posts: 578
lol, so if I start quoting a book called "Ural Steel" by Aleksei Federov or some shit, are you really going to take that at face value?
You guys crack me up.
He is a well respected historian having Access to all the combat reports of many WW2 Units.
3 Dec 2014, 20:29 PM
#90
Posts: 1702
He is a well respected historian having Access to all the combat reports of many WW2 Units.
The author specifically states that for the kill claims, he used the combat diaries of the Shwerer panzer regiments. The kill claims simply don't add up because they claim destroying IS-2s or other heavy tanks where soviet documents show no presence of such tanks. This can be atributted to misidentification amongst other things.
As are most kill claims, they are quite often inflated and i already provided details as to why.
Take the kill claims with a grain of salt.
3 Dec 2014, 21:05 PM
#91
Posts: 578
The kill claims simply don't add up because they claim destroying IS-2s or other heavy tanks where soviet documents show no presence of such tanks.
Of course....it cannot be what cannot be........yeah true tigers NEVER destroyed one of the godlike and undestroyable holy IS-2s. I heard that the IS-2 was also immune against Atom bombs........
I have News for you from the real universe: 1.235 IS-2 tanks were destroyed during WW2 in just about 1 year in service.
3 Dec 2014, 21:09 PM
#92
Posts: 1702
Of course....it cannot be what cannot be........yeah true tigers NEVER destroyed one of the godlike and undestroyable holy IS-2s. I heard that the IS-2 was also immune against Atom bombs........
I have News for you from the real universe: 1.235 IS-2 tanks were destroyed during WW2 in just about 1 year in service.
I am not stating that IS-2s were never destroyed by tigers. All i am saying is that the shwerer panzer regiment diaries are an unreliable source ( as most kill claims are).
3 Dec 2014, 21:25 PM
#93
Posts: 923
I wonder if people would be so off-put by the last scene if that was the Red Army attacking a Panzer IV......
But I digress and I am drunk.
But I digress and I am drunk.
Disclaimer: Posts made while drunk should not count against this poster.
3 Dec 2014, 22:48 PM
#94
Posts: 1225
Jesus H. Christ on a pushbike. I won't even bother attempting to engage particular points in this slugfest of stupidity, but it is fairly revealing in the first place that opinions ie. on the merits of the Tiger seem to oscillate solely between it being an abject conceptual failure on the one hand, and it being a spectacular success on the other, both of which stem from misunderstandings of its design approach, tatical function, and operational role, and not in the least the industrial requirements of building it which are quite commonnly greatly overstated.
As for the movie, its a movie. Its certainly not a cineastic masterpiece, but except for the indeed ridiculous ending scene it is actually semi-enjoyable, as far as a film of that nature can be enjoyable in the first place. In any case no point in getting worked up over it.
As for the movie, its a movie. Its certainly not a cineastic masterpiece, but except for the indeed ridiculous ending scene it is actually semi-enjoyable, as far as a film of that nature can be enjoyable in the first place. In any case no point in getting worked up over it.
3 Dec 2014, 23:05 PM
#95
Posts: 204
Permanently Banned
3 Dec 2014, 23:42 PM
#96
15 Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5
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4 Dec 2014, 03:01 AM
#97
Posts: 1026
The good old Russian logic...
Fight a guy who is armed with a pistol with 10 guys using shovels. Guy with the pistol will shoot seven guys until his magazine is empty. The remaining shovel guys finish him off. Conclusion: Shovel > Pistol.
If the option is 10 guys with a shovel or 1 guy with a pistol then that seems like a pretty good choice to make for your army. As it happens, the Red Army never outnumbered the Axis 10:1, and in fact in the early stages of the war the Axis matched or even outnumbered the Soviets on that front. The significant numerical advantage comes later for the Soviets, and over that same time period we see the emergence of Tigers, Panthers, Tiger IIs and so on. While these vehicles were quite effective tactically, it's likely that the Ostheer would have performed better with larger numbers of lesser vehicles than it would have with smaller numbers of high performance vehicles. The most amazing military accomplishments of the Wehrmacht were achieved in the early years of the war and were not the result of supertanks and wunderwaffen, they were achieved with aircraft, small arms and tanks that were more or less comparable to what their opponents were fielding.
4 Dec 2014, 03:53 AM
#98
Posts: 1225
DeafMutes, the alleged Axis numerical superiority in the opening stages of Barbarossa is only true if you look at forces in presence at any given point. If you consider strength committed over the campaign, which of course is a far more telling metric, the RKKA actually (IIRC) inducted over 18 million (IIRC) personnel in 1941 alone (I'd have to check Krivosheev here), of which the vast majority served in the Western Military District, attesting to its vast losses. For comparison, over the entire course of the war, in all theaters, about 18 million men served in the Wehrmacht...
4 Dec 2014, 10:32 AM
#99
Posts: 1217
Some people underestimate box armor. The design of the Tiger and Panzer IV was from the 1930ies and sloped armor offered a better protection in general. But the disadvantage could be somewhat corrected by angling the armor yourself. Something every Tiger crew would have learned in basic training (Tigerfibel: Mahlzeitstellung). Most likely the enemy wouldn´t have to penetrate 100mm or 80mm of effective armor on the Tiger but a bit more. Then again one could argue that falls under the category "skilled crews".
A picture from the Tigerfibel about the Mahlzeitstellung/ meal-time-position:
Red dots indicate the best protection.
Another picture form the Tigerfibel: "T-34s aren´t allowed to get into the cloverleaf."
Green area: "I will get shot there."
Red dots: Mahlzeitstellung. "I can shoot him, he can´t shoot me."
Describing the Tiger as a piece of garbage is false imo. A good crew could get the maximum out of it. The design might be outdated, but those negative effects could be overcome by crews.
A picture from the Tigerfibel about the Mahlzeitstellung/ meal-time-position:
Red dots indicate the best protection.
Another picture form the Tigerfibel: "T-34s aren´t allowed to get into the cloverleaf."
Green area: "I will get shot there."
Red dots: Mahlzeitstellung. "I can shoot him, he can´t shoot me."
Describing the Tiger as a piece of garbage is false imo. A good crew could get the maximum out of it. The design might be outdated, but those negative effects could be overcome by crews.
4 Dec 2014, 10:59 AM
#100
Posts: 144
Some people underestimate box armor. The design of the Tiger and Panzer IV was from the 1930ies and sloped armor offered a better protection in general. But the disadvantage could be somewhat corrected by angling the armor yourself. Something every Tiger crew would have learned in basic training (Tigerfibel: Mahlzeitstellung). Most likely the enemy wouldn´t have to penetrate 100mm or 80mm of effective armor on the Tiger but a bit more. Then again one could argue that falls under the category "skilled crews".
A picture from the Tigerfibel about the Mahlzeitstellung/ meal-time-position:
Red dots indicate the best protection.
Another picture form the Tigerfibel: "T-34s aren´t allowed to get into the cloverleaf."
Green area: "I will get shot there."
Red dots: Mahlzeitstellung. "I can shoot him, he can´t shoot me."
Describing the Tiger as a piece of garbage is false imo. A good crew could get the maximum out of it. The design might be outdated, but those negative effects could be overcome by crews.
When they were not break down, and had enough fuel to move.
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