Company of Call-Ins 2 - An Argument for Change

I think Altering the Non-call in options is an essential part in any solution. Right now, i don't want to tech as soviets b/c a t34 isn't very good. Shermans cost 10 fuel more and tear up infantry while having about the same anti tank potential. They can also cap territory at vet 0, mount a pintle mg and repair their own damn tanks without doctrines or vet. I know its asymetrical balance but USF and OKW clearly have better non-doctrinal vehicles In addition to less obtuse tech paths, thats why people tech in those factions more often and can win with teching.

A bit outside the main point but i think reducing the cost requirements to field the M5 halftrack/Su76 such as low building cost but a research price for t34s/su85s would allow the soviets to get vehicles out earlier and apply more pressure while encouraging early teching. Conversely Buffs to the 222 and Flame HT would Do the same for Wher. There aren't any quaility vehicles between scout cars And tanks within these factions so its harder to force counter vehicles out of your opponents.

Fuel upkeep

@Ciez

"Cost of a P4:

T1 + BP 1 + T2 + BP 2 + T3 + P4:
(80/10) + (200/45) + (120/15) + (200/55) + (160/25) + (350/125) = 1110 manpower/275 fuel

Cost of a Tiger: (I'm operating under the assumption that T2 is a necessity because of how strong it is)
T1 + BP 1 + T2 + Tiger
(80/10) + (200/45) + (120/15) + (740/230) = 1140 manpower/300 fuel"

Your calculation is questionable. From game point of view,to get a P4 you only need to build a bunker, Bp1, Bp2, then build T3. Or: build T1, Bp1, Bp2 then build T3. Or: Bp1, build T2, Bp2, build T3.
For a Tiger, imagine you use mechanized assault with let you with alot of options on what building you should build or not. There are to manny variables that could make this calculation look according to the one calculating's interest.

What I am about to say now will probably make me a singular case on this forum. I have no problem with call-in system right now. The only faction abusing of current call-in system is soviets and that is because their faction architecture. They are supposed to base themselves on the doctrine they pick. Faction's feature: mediocre core army, excellent doctrines, unlike Ostheer for instance : good core army, not to manny good doctrines. So actually the frustration seed related to actual call-in syustem relies in how one faction is built (soviets) and there's nothing you can do. You like it or not but changing it won't bring a good thing. But this is just my opinion.

How about making call-ins scale from tech cost (if it possible)? For example, tiger without t3/t4 will cost about 800/300, with t3 build 650/250, and, finally, 500/200 with t3 and t4 build.

If player wants to play without tech, he must sacrifice something for advantage in mid game from unspent resources rather than gaining another advantage in late game from superior tanks.

I'd dearly like to see a change to Call-Ins.
Any change would be welcome.

As Ciez pointed out - it's safer and even more economical wait for that Call-In.
This goes against the very core of strategy games that include any kind of teching:

Invest now and reap benefits later!
Invest too much and get overrun.
Invest too little too late and suffer for it.



Imo Call-Ins represent a deeply rooted problem:
There are few tough makro choices to be made.

Solution 4: Limit 1 heavy tank at a time per player, but remove fuel cost.

This way building T3/T4 units mid-late game is not discouraged since it will not delay the super heavies. Also prevents super late game call-in spam. The other options don't stop the late game heavy spam it only slows it down. With one heavy at a time (and for no fuel) its also still encouraged to make T3 and T4 units even after your call-ins are unlocked for more support rather than saving up for double (or even triple) heavies, which would inevitably happen in longer games.

Rework vet so that vetted non-call in tanks scale better and can stand up to callins.
This rewards preservation and doesn't punish you for delaying heavy tanks

Solution 4: Limit 1 heavy tank at a time per player, but remove fuel cost.

This way building T3/T4 units mid-late game is not discouraged since it will not delay the super heavies. Also prevents super late game call-in spam. The other options don't stop the late game heavy spam it only slows it down. With one heavy at a time (and for no fuel) its also still encouraged to make T3 and T4 units even after your call-ins are unlocked for more support rather than saving up for double (or even triple) heavies, which would inevitably happen in longer games.

This.
/thread

Good points, CieZ.

Solution 4: Limit 1 heavy tank at a time per player, but remove fuel cost.

This way building T3/T4 units mid-late game is not discouraged since it will not delay the super heavies. Also prevents super late game call-in spam. The other options don't stop the late game heavy spam it only slows it down. With one heavy at a time (and for no fuel) its also still encouraged to make T3 and T4 units even after your call-ins are unlocked for more support rather than saving up for double (or even triple) heavies, which would inevitably happen in longer games.

Thats what i tought.

I think the issue is the competition for resources (fuel). If there is an option A and an option B and B gives you a better unit then you will go for B since it is more effectiv. Thats why "Solution 1" wont work imho. At the end you just increase the price and delay the heavy but you still chose it.

An other idea: Maybe even just heavy one per game. It would be mroe important to keep it alive and you you don´t save your ressources for a new heay this way. You can spend it for other units. I also like the idea to reduce the ressource income for some time if you decide to go for such a heavy.

The root of this call-in stalling is the new resource system that grants you fuel from strategic points. Basically, even if your opponent doesn't let you have your fuel at all during a game you can still get a heavy tank call-in on the field at some point. But I believe this is another discussion so I'll leave it at that.

An other idea: Maybe even just heavy one per game. It would be mroe important to keep it alive and you you don´t save your ressources for a new heay this way. You can spend it for other units. I also like the idea to reduce the ressource income for some time if you decide to go for such a heavy.

Good idea but in perfect game. In CoH2 where there are pathfinding problems and stuff like that it would be too punishing to have only 1 heavy tank which you lost due to gameplay issues.

I like the idea to move heavies even to 20 CP. Not much to work, force to use medium tanks, heavies will show up only at the end and this will prevent situation like T1-T2-Call ins because it's too risky.

Good idea but in perfect game. In CoH2 where there are pathfinding problems and stuff like that it would be too punishing to have only 1 heavy tank which you lost due to gameplay issues.

I like the idea to move heavies even to 20 CP. Not much to work, force to use medium tanks, heavies will show up only at the end and this will prevent situation like T1-T2-Call ins because it's too risky.

It would be horrible to be forced to use only medium tanks...not looking at any faction in particular...US...
as for 20CP it will still be a wait till heavies with slightly more medium tanks, also what about T34/85 will that be 20CP? or 15? ect.
I think the limit whether it be you get 1 per game or you can only have 1 at a time like artillery officer maybe with a long cooldown like 10 mins(perhaps with a timer start on death) maybe without, that way a heavy tank will be precious until it's cooldown is almost off, if timer starts on death it will give a breakthrough period which would be the reward for killing the heavy tank, I believe the KT should be added to this as well since it has a high reward for lower risk than medium tanks since you can repair it and have a brand new tank.

T3 for tiger? People are still going to research T3 and go for tiger regardless, it's not that big of an investment as say soviet T3.

Solution 4: Limit 1 heavy tank at a time per player, but remove fuel cost.

This way building T3/T4 units mid-late game is not discouraged since it will not delay the super heavies. Also prevents super late game call-in spam. The other options don't stop the late game heavy spam it only slows it down. With one heavy at a time (and for no fuel) its also still encouraged to make T3 and T4 units even after your call-ins are unlocked for more support rather than saving up for double (or even triple) heavies, which would inevitably happen in longer games.

I like the idea of having one heavy tank at a time but disagree about having no fuel cost. Reason why it worked in Coh1 was that you could prevent your opponent getting a heavy by cutting him off and getting aggressive to reduce his popcap. In Coh2 you can't do that, that's why I think heavies need a fuel cost so you still have an opportunity delay his call-ins by capturing territory.

Ztormi is right, with out the territory connected to pop cap, heavy tanks must have the fuel cost.

Mh, good point. So CPs? I guess Relic won´t chance the ressource system.

On my personal, no-pro opinion, I think that 1 heavy per game is the way to go; alternatively, a 5-10 minute timer that starts after the heavy is destroyed is a nice alternative.

I have this sense that the heavies should be add "drama" to the game, adding the risk on the caller that, if he loses, the game could be turned, and, on the other side, the person facing it feels the pressure of destroying it or see your army desperatelly losing territory due to sheer brute force of an elite unit.

Even though the King Tiger is not a call in unit per se, its raw power and the way it works is just as the tiger or IS2. I always thought that the core game could be changed so that instead the tiger and elephant being doctrinal, they could be available too as core units, after all techs being built, in the T0 base. As the player "unlocks" them, they could pick one - Tiger or Elephant (OST), IS2 or ISU (SOV). That way, the doctrines could concentrate on special abilities, off-maps and the ocasional special infantry or artillery unit.