Poll: Do Soviets need a major faction redesign?

Good posts, I agree with what Ninja has writte - yet I don't think Soviets need a total overhaul. I will present you a simple two-step-solution that fixes all problems with the faction.

As stated before Soviets are the most inflexible faction, therefor their chosen set of troops must be superior, because they are open to counters of a flexible faction - which is not the case, every single nondoctrial unit is inferior to their counterpart (except snipers) - This leads to the so called Call-In-Problem. In order to be competitive soviet players MUST rely on skipping tech costs, hence field a larger amount of call-in units. Therefor only a mere 5 commanders are playable.
The other huge problem is that allied factions do not scale well with increasing game size - mainly because inferior completion of mixed factions and soviet infantry that becomes simply obsolete at a certain point in the game.

I suggest two simple steps that solve the core issue of the faction and allows to adress the 'cheesy' strategy problem afterwards, for which I also will suggest solutions.

1) Introduction of the nondoctrinal tank KV-85
° price and performance equal the Panther
° unlocked with the possession of both, T3 and T4
° adjust price of the second built tier of the two to match the total tech cost of the Panther from OH
° makes ALL SOVIET DOCTRINES PLAYABLE
° balance of this unit cannot ever be argued about because it equals the Panther in all properties
° encourages use of nondoctrinal vehicles
° encourages creation of a wide spectrum of new, non-cheesy tactics

2) Soviet infantry can purchase US weapons
° must be researched indipendently from the US player, purchased at US base
° research and/or purchase costs significantly higher for soviets
° gives soviets options to usefully invest Ammo, other than spamming mines
° ALLOWS SOVIET INFANTRY to SCALE with time and play a role in late game
° alternatively make DPs available to all soviet infantry
° does not affect 1v1 balance

In Return actual problematic units/meta definers can be worked on. I suggest the following changes:

3) Call-In tank prices rise with each purchase
° +10% for single medium tanks (KV1, Command P4, T34/85,..)
° +20% for heavy tanks and double medium call-ins (2*T34/85, ISU-152, Elefant, Kampfgruppe,..)
° +30% for super heavies (Jagdtiger)

4) 50% death chance for the actual sniper entity when the soviet sniper team loses a man
° double reenforce cost of the sniper entity compared to the spotter
° deflates abusive sniper heavy tactics
° evens the performance of the two factions' snipers

5) Nerf ISU-152 and Jagttiger slightly
° reduce ISU-152's squad wipe potential
° give the Jagdtiger a huge scatter if shooting through obstacles to about 20% hit chance for moving targets and about 50% for static targets
° benefits for the whole game are obvious


These are the core changes which lead to a far better game in my eyes. Thanks for reading.

I agree with your suggestion may even be suggesting new models of skins for infantry and vehicles as another suggestion gave another guy http://davidchambersconcepts.blogspot.sg/2013/06/company-of-heroes-2-concept-art. html

What I would do is make T34s scale A LOT with veterancy, that way you could use them early and be rewarded for preservation but it will prevent you from spamming them.
Like, at vet1 should always win vs P4, at vet3 should trade blows with a Panther.
This is valid for all tanks all factions anyway, preserve your midweight tanks and get vet on them and they will be able to stand up to heavies.

Am i allowed to laugh at your suggestion ? T34 always winning vs P4 ? In what world do Soviets need a buff versus Wehrmacht ?

It should be possible to discuss this topic without unnecessary ad hominems Agreed

The Soviet faction itself isn't limited in it's capabilities for the most part, unlike the USF faction, thankfully it's quite simple to do well early mid and late game, but usually that requires either A. Going for cheese(Which every faction does anyway in some way....) or B. Using a strategy that involves strong infantry/snipers into call-ins.
I feel the problem with the Soviet faction is the fact that half of what the faction has to offer is workable, but the other half isn't. For example: going Irregulars, NKVD, Community Doc, T-34/76s, Su-76s, Su-85s, or something out of the ordinary usually punishes you in most cases by making it harder to win without having perfect unit preservation, micro, and strategic tactics in hand(but most people enjoy the lazier/easier way of doing things, which I don't blame em' for).

So I voted not for a major overhaul of the faction, because that's just stupid honestly..(it'll just complicate things more than solve them in the long run[especially if you look at the things Relic has done in the past with major overhaul patches balance wise....])....but smaller changes on a broader scale with commanders and tier units that are currently viewed as obsolete(they just need some love..), thus allowing for a broader variety of more enjoyable gameplay.

It should be possible to discuss this topic without unnecessary ad hominems Agreed

If this is a reply to what i just posted, i fail to see where it is an ad hominem.

If this is a reply to what i just posted, i fail to see where it is an ad hominem.

It is not a reply to what you posted - if it was, I would have quoted your post, or named you. Hope that helps - and sorry if it caused confusion

It is not a reply to what you posted - if it was, I would have quoted your post, or named you. Hope that helps - and sorry if it caused confusion

All right, no harm done, it may have been a crosspost, as i read your reply almost instantly after my post.

....but smaller changes on a broader scale with commanders and tier units that are currently viewed as obsolete(they just need some love..), thus allowing for a broader variety of more enjoyable gameplay.

Hehehe lets make Hit the Dirt and Rapid Conscription OP

All right, no harm done, it may have been a crosspost, as i read your reply almost instantly after my post.

np. You can always PM me if you have a concern.

Hehehe lets make Hit the Dirt and Rapid Conscription OP

Nothing like letting HTD stack with cover once again

The Soviet faction itself isn't limited in it's capabilities for the most part, unlike the USF faction, thankfully it's quite simple to do well early mid and late game, but usually that requires either A. Going for cheese(Which every faction does anyway in some way....) or B. Using a strategy that involves strong infantry/snipers into call-ins.
I feel the problem with the Soviet faction is the fact that half of what the faction has to offer is workable, but the other half isn't. For example: going Irregulars, NKVD, Community Doc, T-34/76s, Su-76s, Su-85s, or something out of the ordinary usually punishes you in most cases by making it harder to win without having perfect unit preservation, micro, and strategic tactics in hand(but most people enjoy the lazier/easier way of doing things, which I don't blame em' for).

So I voted not for a major overhaul of the faction, because that's just stupid honestly..(it'll just complicate things more than solve them in the long run[especially if you look at the things Relic has done in the past with major overhaul patches balance wise....])....but smaller changes on a broader scale with commanders and tier units that are currently viewed as obsolete(they just need some love..), thus allowing for a broader variety of more enjoyable gameplay.

Perhaps something like this?

Nothing like letting HTD stack with cover once again

i'm not sure that would matter anymore. RGs ruin HTD conscripts and OKW has volks nades. leaving HTD the way it is but making it toggleable would go a long way to making it usable because it wouldn't be a death trap.

The soviet faction needs a redesign imho.
Switching the tier of some units is the first thing thats needs to be done.I was thinking of something like this:

-HQ -> Clown car ,combat engineers
-T1 -> Sniper (small nerf) ,conscripts(small buff) ,Maxim
-T2 -> Zis-3,Guards(6x Mosin),82mm Mortar
-T3 -> T-70(cost reduction),M5,Su-76(buff),T-34/76
-T4 -> Su-85(buff),Katyusha,KV-85 (new unit,equals the panther)

HQ upgrades :1.Infantry can purchase SVT-40 Upgrade(3xCons,6xGuards)
:2.Infantry can purchase Bazookas (1xCons/Engineers)
:3.AI-Grenade(instead of Molotov) for Infantry
:4. 85mm upgrade for T-34
The DPS and accuracy of combat engineers should be raised slightly,they should be able to build bunkers and get 1xSVT-40 upgrade,DP-28 needs DPS-buff,so it can keep up with lmg-grens.

Well this are lots of changes(obviously these are major buffs) and i know that not all of you will like this,but i think it goes in the right direction (well at least somewhat).

Molotov is fine.

i really like someone's idea of upgrades within t3/t4 structure.

i think it went like:

basic t3/t4 structures are cheap but they have to be upgraded to get t34/su85s out.

i think this would make sov mid game vehicles like t70, su76, or even quad m5 out earlier for more interesting mid game for sov.

i really like it for if i wanted su76 to support for t34, i can do it cheaply but if want to utilize t34 +su85, probably one the most effective combo, you need to invest more etc etc.

Are Soviets suppose to be a "spam" faction? It surely doesn't feel like it. Not sure what Relic wants to do with the Soviet faction

Are Soviets suppose to be a "spam" faction? It surely doesn't feel like it. Not sure what Relic wants to do with the Soviet faction

If by 'spam' you mean lack of variety, then yes.

If by 'spam' you mean 'outnumbering your opponents force;', then absolutely no, not with the prices soviets have.

If by 'spam' you mean lack of variety, then yes.

If by 'spam' you mean 'outnumbering your opponents force;', then absolutely no, not with the prices soviets have.

I mean i guesss you can con spam and outnumber all the troops on the field...

ive always imagined the Soviets in the game to overwhelm players with tons of T34s and troops, but the number of units are pretty similar to other factions. T34s are also pretty pricey; the vastly superior pz4 is just like 15 fuel more?

Losing units as Soviet feels pretty catastrophic as well. Getting squad wiped means the Axis late game clock is ticking faster

Interesting discussion, it appears there's pretty strong agreement that Soviets need to be changed heavily in some way. How much though is split about 50-50.

I think one of the problems for the Soviets is the essential fragility of their units, 6 man squads only count vs snipers, the rest of the time, the damage inflicted on each other is roughly equal. This means that if you have squads brought down to one man and retreating, then the damage inflicted on them is greater compared to a German squad brought down to one man.