Obersoldaten and stuff

plz stop with the historical discussion. this is a game.

dont u dare reply with "its a game based on ww2"

yea so is wolfenstien

Tell that to the people who say "Germans ARE better at everything" and then use that statement to justify asymmetric balance.

I'll make sure never to use the qualifier 'if memory serves'; that would require people to read it.

Okay, so there were just Volksgrenadier divisions, and they sucked. Even Peiper's unit sucked donkey dong.

Why are Obers a thing then?

And please point me to a battle where the germans fended off a much superior enemy post battle of stalingrad. Where did
these battle hardened troops come from? Most were fresh recruits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino

These are but a few examples of superior German leadership, training, weapons and infantry turning the tide of battle, and defeating much larger Allied forces that also had air superiority. A user(Affe I think? I'm not quite sure on the spelling) had quite a detailed list of battles post-Battle of Stalingrad where the Germans slaughtered Americans and Russians in great numbers, and even launched counter offensives despite having no air support and were heavily outnumbered.

To answer your question of "where did these battle hardened troops come from?", my answer is troops who fought in the early war(Battle of Poland, Battle of Denmark, Battle of France and etc) as well as in Russia. A lot of these troops had more experience than any other nation in the war except maybe for the Japanese, and so they carried their experience and skills over into the later stages of the war; the Obersoldaten are a direct homage to those very troops who survived the countless battles from the late 1930's until late 44'.

The CoH franchise prides itself on its stellar gameplay mechanics and historical authenticity, which is why nerfing the Obersoldaten to make them like any other infantry is an error of the highest magnitude. The Obersoldaten are supposed to be the best infantry in the game, and even now Shocks and conscripts/US rifles can defeat Obersoldatens if they're supported with light artillery(Mortars and etc) and light vehicles. The Germans were the most elite in WW2 so obviously the Obersoldaten should reflect that since CoH2 is supposed to be historically authentic.

I'll make sure never to use the qualifier 'if memory serves'; that would require people to read it.

Okay, so there were just Volksgrenadier divisions, and they sucked. Even Peiper's unit sucked donkey dong.

Why are Obers a thing then?

Inexperienced does not necessarily equal ill-trained or "sucking".
The bizarre thing about the late-war ETO (as in Normandy, Bulge, Market-Garden etc.) is that ze Germans, hastily trained, outnumbered and poorly equipped as they were, managed to not only sometimes significantly stall Allied progress, but also inflict often significant casualties, sometimes exceeding their own. Considering just how lopsided virtually all the tangible factors where in Allied favour, they should not have, but they did.

As to Obers, how would you design a German faction "authentically" and not have the game blow? Because a competitive game where one side does not stand any chance whatsoever, well, it doesnt sell.

Oh and Ninja, while your affinity to the National Socialist German Workers Party is duly noted, would you mind changing your avatar or something?

its amazing how relic isnt doing anything yet with something as glaring as this. there's a good amount of arguments why obers should be nerfed/toned down to believable levels, while most of the counter arguments are actually pretty horrible (note: Jaigen), something kids say when you take away their ice cream.

You should try US vs obers...

Soviets get 120mm, howis, KV8, mines, demos, an MG not made out of paper, Katyusha, fear propaganda, strafes even the AT gun has minor blob counter. US have M8 and Sherman HE and maybe a pack howitzer to stop a blob. Rifles/Para stand no chance without a lucky grenade, I'd take shocks any day over them but you are right about guards, useless unit imo.

-snip-

Please top saying that CoH is a historically authentic game. It's so far from it I don't know where you're getting this. I can't understand, the only thing historically authentic about this shit is that the tanks were in fact real tanks that did exist at one point. And like the weapon names. Other than that, nothing about it is historically authentic. Your panthers treads don't get authentically bogged down in Russian mud, your troops don't get authentically hungry if you don't feed them, your veteran units don't authentically lose veterancy even if all of the models that obtained the vet are killed, troops don't authentically desert your army to go home, soldiers don't authentically ignore your stupid orders like throwing grenades on themselves, a game like that would be authentically boring as fuck.

CoH 2 is an arcade game. It's the same shit as Street Fighter or Starcraft or fucking Halo. Otherwise they would never patch balance, because the balance of history never fucking changes it already happened. It's not like Relic went, "Oh shit we just found this book and it says that T34s really cost 100 fuel and not 85, so let's change it up to remain historically authentic." They go, "No this shit is not balanced and isn't fun for the players, so let's change it." Historical authenticity is neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever a balance argument. It might be a qualm about the game, that you feel that units are not represented historically, but it is not an argument for balance. Ever. So please for the sake of my sanity stop doing that.

Getting off topic again, this isn't a history forum.

It is actually not the Squad itself, its more like the LMG 34 raping everything. Just tone down the LMG a bit and were fine.

Regardless, obersoldaten are too cost efficient as a low risk high reward unit, compared to other elite infantry that are locked within specific commanders, limiting playstyle. M1919 cost their munitions and are set in one commander (so must always use the same commander in order to be able to counter obers with infantry?) and shocks... Most likely soviets will choose a commander with it, since Guards are garbage and call in meta will screw Soviets if they choose most other commanders. Regardless, it is much more advantageous to have the enemy come to you than you having to come to the enemy in order to damage them. A knife to a gunfight. Ober stats would be fine if it was properly earned through a more realistic cost.

Simple: tone down LMG34 to LMG42 levels or add substantial muni cost.

snip

Now I don't know much about Monte Cassino, but Market Garden was not an example of German competence but an example of Allied over confidence.

The entire plan was based on using Paratroopers to hold a salient a few miles wide along a major road against German Panzer divisions while British Armored divisions used the road to cross the Rhine.

It was a stupid plan that was approved because it was Monty's pet idea, Ike wanted to get his elite Airborne divisions back into the fight, and the Allied generals started to believe their own propaganda that the Germans had no fight left in them.

By your logic USF Paratroopers should be much more powerful because of Bastogne. That's not how balancing a game works.

Can someone take a bat to all these people who bring historical accuracy into this game... bitches please

although i prefer axis, i do have to agree with you there...
today i was locked down by an usf player on langres... i had 3 strategic points and 1vp...
he had 3 shermans (having both fuel points). i had only 1 ober squad 3 shreked-up-volks and 3 püppchen. a couple of minutes later my superior AT forces had gotten rid of his tanks and the obers were vet 5 with 60+ kills to their name...
then i just built a KT and mopped up the rest of his forces.
he had to surrender with 300 vp (i had 100ish). i should have lost,
but i won that game because my obers laughed at his infanrty trying to survive volleys of lmg34 fire ( "haha, schau hans, sie fallen wie die fliegen" - Obersoldat Fritz 2014) and his only available counters where useless against vet 5 volks with shreks (the püppchens died though )

Did ever occured to you that you beat him because you simply were better than him? First question I can think of is if he have locked you, why the heck didn't maul you with balistic weapons? Aka field gun, mortar, priest.....No Ober in the world would escaped that.

To others: Guys, I won't deny that USF needs some buffs, but all these "nerf Obersoldaten" whynings are pissin me off. They got nerfed once in the past, good, it was needed. One ober squad in the middle of the road fighting against 3 penal squads in cover and force them retreat was not normal. But now.... I remember soviet fanboys arguments back before WFA related to why shock troops are not counterable by any kind of infantry: "They cannot be countered by the thing they were build to counter" ; "But... they have no AT capabilities... JUST USE A VEHICLE!!" ; "They are elite infantry troops. THEY SUPPOSE TO BEHAVE LIKE THIS" ; "But...they cost alot! THey can't be spammed!" and so on....

Now eat your own cake.... They are perfectly fine, and they can be countered even by an infantry unit, UNLIKE shocks were in the past, when Ostheer squads were nearly defenseless against them. Shock troops can counter them for instance!

I remember soviet fanboys arguments back before WFA related to why shock troops are not counterable by any kind of infantry: "They cannot be countered by the thing they were build to counter" ; "But... they have no AT capabilities... JUST USE A VEHICLE!!" ; "They are elite infantry troops. THEY SUPPOSE TO BEHAVE LIKE THIS" ; "But...they cost alot! THey can't be spammed!" and so on....

Now eat your own cake.... They are perfectly fine, and they can be countered even by an infantry unit, UNLIKE shocks were in the past, when Ostheer squads were nearly defenseless against them. Shock troops can counter them for instance!

You are either forgetting or ignore one big part of the shocks discussion... Their range. The popular argument being that they did cost a ton, where counterable by vehicles (after a patch, god the shocks vs scout car was bullshit) and had to get in really close to be effective. This against a faction that were/are great in longrange combat.

What if Shocks were longrange? Well they'd be called Obers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino

These are but a few examples of superior German leadership, training, weapons and infantry turning the tide of battle, and defeating much larger Allied forces that also had air superiority. A user(Affe I think? I'm not quite sure on the spelling) had quite a detailed list of battles post-Battle of Stalingrad where the Germans slaughtered Americans and Russians in great numbers, and even launched counter offensives despite having no air support and were heavily outnumbered.

To answer your question of "where did these battle hardened troops come from?", my answer is troops who fought in the early war(Battle of Poland, Battle of Denmark, Battle of France and etc) as well as in Russia. A lot of these troops had more experience than any other nation in the war except maybe for the Japanese, and so they carried their experience and skills over into the later stages of the war; the Obersoldaten are a direct homage to those very troops who survived the countless battles from the late 1930's until late 44'.

The CoH franchise prides itself on its stellar gameplay mechanics and historical authenticity, which is why nerfing the Obersoldaten to make them like any other infantry is an error of the highest magnitude. The Obersoldaten are supposed to be the best infantry in the game, and even now Shocks and conscripts/US rifles can defeat Obersoldatens if they're supported with light artillery(Mortars and etc) and light vehicles. The Germans were the most elite in WW2 so obviously the Obersoldaten should reflect that since CoH2 is supposed to be historically authentic.

One of your examples of superior german leadership shows a german defeat, and you keep showing operation market garden like it was the most crushing defeat the allies had. Yes, even in 1944 germans could still win battles, not denying that.


Still no evidence of that "slaughter" of russian and american forces.


Also lol at japanese being well trained troops, what are you even smoking?


Yeah, sure the germans launched counterattacks with very little air support and whatever, and you know what ? They all failed miserably.



The troops that survived from the start of the war to 1944-45 barely existed. Sure there were a few, but these kind of people very rare due to the nature of infantry combat.
And there is absolutely no evidence that more germans had more of these troops than anyone else, considering that their divisions were constantly getting annihilated and reffited over and over again.

Did ever occured to you that you beat him because you simply were better than him? First question I can think of is if he have locked you, why the heck didn't maul you with balistic weapons? Aka field gun, mortar, priest.....No Ober in the world would escaped that.

To others: Guys, I won't deny that USF needs some buffs, but all these "nerf Obersoldaten" whynings are pissin me off. They got nerfed once in the past, good, it was needed. One ober squad in the middle of the road fighting against 3 penal squads in cover and force them retreat was not normal. But now.... I remember soviet fanboys arguments back before WFA related to why shock troops are not counterable by any kind of infantry: "They cannot be countered by the thing they were build to counter" ; "But... they have no AT capabilities... JUST USE A VEHICLE!!" ; "They are elite infantry troops. THEY SUPPOSE TO BEHAVE LIKE THIS" ; "But...they cost alot! THey can't be spammed!" and so on....

Now eat your own cake.... They are perfectly fine, and they can be countered even by an infantry unit, UNLIKE shocks were in the past, when Ostheer squads were nearly defenseless against them. Shock troops can counter them for instance!

It's not about just Obers, it's that there are too many units with insane DPS at long range.
It's easier to deal with Shocks with 222, sniper, MG, LMG rather than Obers with M3s, MGs and up to some point Snipers (double sniper are an awesome counter but a SLIGHT mistake and the Ober snipes them).

You are either forgetting or ignore one big part of the shocks discussion... Their range. The popular argument being that they did cost a ton, where counterable by vehicles (after a patch, god the shocks vs scout car was bullshit) and had to get in really close to be effective. This against a faction that were/are great in longrange combat.

What if Shocks were longrange? Well they'd be called Obers.

I am not forgeting. I just assume that the body armor + extra 2 models and smoke grenade compensate for that. Am I wrong?

It's not about just Obers, it's that there are too many units with insane DPS at long range.
It's easier to deal with Shocks with 222, sniper, MG, LMG rather than Obers with M3s, MGs and up to some point Snipers (double sniper are an awesome counter but a SLIGHT mistake and the Ober snipes them).

Well I don't think that long range units with efficient DPS are necessarely a problem. The german factions design is to be more efficient at long range. Soviets for instance, have no such advantage but in compensation they have larger squads. I don't know, this seems logical to me. Now the quantity of micro needed to play both sides is debatable, some consider is harder with allied and others it's harder with germans. I personally think the hardest factions to micro are ostheer and USF but this is my opinion.
I understand some players' frustration towards obers but let's not push this to extreme. All armies in COH2 have the proper tools to win, but some of them are requiring more skill for victory. But then, we have to consider the fact that the player base does not contain only people who play 4 hours a day every day. So there must be factions for them too. For instance, soviets . Sorry, I could't abstain. Joke.