ISU-152 Overnerfed

Infantry squads have paper for armor, that's what is implied in INFANTRY!

^Not a real argument, but whatever.

THe germans have plenty of options for wiping infantry. In fact, the germans have 3 nondoctrinal units to do so. The Brummbar has the exact same AOE value as the ISU, and it has a vet artillery strike. Then there is the Panzerwerfer, which fires 12 rockets at a single position from far range, and is usually either a wipe or heavy damage to any infantry in the area. Finally, there is the Sturmtiger, which can instawipe very large concentrations, shoot through buildings, and even cripple/ instagib vehicles. Germans have plenty of options, they just usually don't bother to use them in most games because they prefer to use Tigers.

EDIT: sorry, forgot to respond to everything: The Stuka can wipe squads with a single rocket, which is not hard to hit because it is deadly accurate.

2 of them in Ost T4, who uses that anyways? lol

Sierra I know your a career troll, but I'm going to humor you anyways.

There is a mechanic within coh that is fundamental to all ballistics. It involves scatter values to rng the path the projectile will take and the size of the target.

AT gun vs kubel: The at gun misses frequently. You say light vehicles have paper armor well the kubel is about as light as it gets, but it's impossible to hit and it gets harder the closer it is to maximum range.

JT vs light vehicles: JT wtfpwns light vehicles in violation of the principle above. I kind of see it as trying to hit a tiny nail with a big heavy hammer instead of using a smaller light hammer. This is supposed to be why it sucks vs infantry too, infantry target size is very small and jT should have no or very little splash. The value is too low currently, because it should be missing light vehicles much more than it does. It should rarely miss mediums. It should never miss a heavy.


The next thing you say, Germans have nothing that comes close to wiping infantry squad instantly? This is how I know 100% your trolling. Many German tools do this. Mortars, rifle grenades, bundled grenades, PanzerIV(w/pintle), sturmpanzerIV, panzerwerfer, Tiger, flakht(beta version), stuka, King Tiger, and the best in the game STURMTIGER!

2 of them in Ost T4, who uses that anyways? lol

I actually do, but thats just how wierd I am. :} i also usually go ostruppen, and Use Elite armor as OKW.

At least now you have to micro it, and its not "the way to go", as it was pre-patch. I like how few of this ISU's and JT I see in the beta, I am happy with the change.

Yeah now finally not everything turns around how to counter the ISU/JS coming in the late game.
It's now actually possible to test out new strats.

Sierra I know your a career troll, but I'm going to humor you anyways.

There is a mechanic within coh that is fundamental to all ballistics. It involves scatter values to rng the path the projectile will take and the size of the target.

AT gun vs kubel: The at gun misses frequently. You say light vehicles have paper armor well the kubel is about as light as it gets, but it's impossible to hit and it gets harder the closer it is to maximum range.

JT vs light vehicles: JT wtfpwns light vehicles in violation of the principle above. I kind of see it as trying to hit a tiny nail with a big heavy hammer instead of using a smaller light hammer. This is supposed to be why it sucks vs infantry too, infantry target size is very small and jT should have no or very little splash. The value is too low currently, because it should be missing light vehicles much more than it does. It should rarely miss mediums. It should never miss a heavy.


The next thing you say, Germans have nothing that comes close to wiping infantry squad instantly? This is how I know 100% your trolling. Many German tools do this. Mortars, rifle grenades, bundled grenades, PanzerIV(w/pintle), sturmpanzerIV, panzerwerfer, Tiger, flakht(beta version), stuka, King Tiger, and the best in the game STURMTIGER!

1: I'm not a career troll you ass, I'm actually extremely fuckin serious and frustrated enough with the shitty way the game has been going that I've uninstalled completely as of 10/25/2014.

2: I'm not disagreeing that the Kubel needed to be made bigger, easier to hit with ATG's and Bazookas, people missed to often. The +5 Fuel cost was overkill/nerf onto the only non-doctrinal suppression method the OKW has! Especially since they are already a terribly resource starved faction.


3: Bundled grenades are dodged like any other grenade, rifle grenades same thing, Mortars are relatively easy to dodge and don't have the "precision drop" ability or the explosive power of 120mm mortars.

Panzer IV's do "okay" against infantry, but not excel. Brumbaars? Who even makes those? It's locked away in stupidly expensive Ostheer T4-Land.

Panzerwerfer can't hit much when it's rockets are spread so sparsely at maximum range saturation fire doesn't help either. (Too much scatter, overnerfed)

FlaK halfrack is just crap, it hits the ground more often than it hits infantry. Though getting rid of the goddamn deconstruction timer just to move was a smart change.

Stuka is good, but expensive and comes in late, horribly delays teching.

King Tiger's are okay, but don't insta-gib squads in a single shot. Also they are terribly, terribly, terribly, terribly slow. Their range is that of punching distance (On guns that were lauded for their extreme range and penetration values at those ranges!)

Tigers are okay but definitely lackluster from their original selves.

Sturmtigers, hah, good luck with that. One shot to hit and you have to give away the fact that it's there just to be in range and drop the shot. By that time all enemy infantry blobs will have insta-retreated back to base. Not to mention that the damn projectile detonates on a slightly strong gust of wind or a butterfly before landing where you want it to. (I know Relic patched it slightly, but not nearly as well as they made it out to be.)

At least now you have to micro it, and its not "the way to go", as it was pre-patch. I like how few of this ISU's and JT I see in the beta, I am happy with the change.

In pre patch it was imba and need to nerf, but don't nerf it to useless unit.

Its still the same unit, just not auto firing. Its not useless.

1: I'm not a career troll you ass, I'm actually extremely fuckin serious and frustrated enough with the shitty way the game has been going that I've uninstalled completely as of 10/25/2014.

2: I'm not disagreeing that the Kubel needed to be made bigger, easier to hit with ATG's and Bazookas, people missed to often. The +5 Fuel cost was overkill/nerf onto the only non-doctrinal suppression method the OKW has! Especially since they are already a terribly resource starved faction.


3: Bundled grenades are dodged like any other grenade, rifle grenades same thing, Mortars are relatively easy to dodge and don't have the "precision drop" ability or the explosive power of 120mm mortars.

Panzer IV's do "okay" against infantry, but not excel. Brumbaars? Who even makes those? It's locked away in stupidly expensive Ostheer T4-Land.

Panzerwerfer can't hit much when it's rockets are spread so sparsely at maximum range saturation fire doesn't help either. (Too much scatter, overnerfed)

FlaK halfrack is just crap, it hits the ground more often than it hits infantry. Though getting rid of the goddamn deconstruction timer just to move was a smart change.

Stuka is good, but expensive and comes in late, horribly delays teching.

King Tiger's are okay, but don't insta-gib squads in a single shot. Also they are terribly, terribly, terribly, terribly slow. Their range is that of punching distance (On guns that were lauded for their extreme range and penetration values at those ranges!)

Tigers are okay but definitely lackluster from their original selves.

Sturmtigers, hah, good luck with that. One shot to hit and you have to give away the fact that it's there just to be in range and drop the shot. By that time all enemy infantry blobs will have insta-retreated back to base. Not to mention that the damn projectile detonates on a slightly strong gust of wind or a butterfly before landing where you want it to. (I know Relic patched it slightly, but not nearly as well as they made it out to be.)

I dont quite know what to do when I read this post. Should I cry or laugh? Wow

Infantry squads have paper for armor, that's what is implied in INFANTRY!

^Not a real argument, but whatever.

THe germans have plenty of options for wiping infantry. In fact, the germans have 3 nondoctrinal units to do so. The Brummbar has the exact same AOE value as the ISU, and it has a vet artillery strike. Then there is the Panzerwerfer, which fires 12 rockets at a single position from far range, and is usually either a wipe or heavy damage to any infantry in the area. Finally, there is the Sturmtiger, which can instawipe very large concentrations, shoot through buildings, and even cripple/ instagib vehicles. Germans have plenty of options, they just usually don't bother to use them in most games because they prefer to use Tigers.

EDIT: sorry, forgot to respond to everything: The Stuka can wipe squads with a single rocket, which is not hard to hit because it is deadly accurate.

Your comparisons are just plane wrong.
The ISU doesn't have a range of 40, like the Brummbär, thus you can easily avoid tank combat. You also seem to forget that bigger 6 men squads are rarely getting wiped.

The ISU, also doesn't have a reload of at least one minute, so you can't compare it with the Sturmtiger.

Same goes for panzerwerfer and stuka. High reload & can't spot for themselves. Especially the panzerwerfer needs to be driven close to the enemy in order to do any damage because of that horrible scatter.

I like the changes because it removes the units out of the game. No longer you can park your super unit behind a wall of at guns and mines and safely destroy the enemy force.
Now the emphasis lies again on tank combat, micro and baiting.

The ISU and Jagdtiger feel just out of place in the CoH mechanics.

you should laugh, it's all baseless dribble with nothing and no one to back him up. Provide a replay Sierra. I don't care that you uninstalled the game, your playback folder is still there with your replays. Upload your temp.rec or no one is going to take you serious. You can come up with all the reasons you want about how you hate german tools or how they have weaknesses, it does not change their potential.

I don´t know how it performs in the beta. But if it indeed just can attack move, it´s pretty much useless. How are new players going to use it?

I think a reload time increase would have been sufficient.

Also it used to be balanced in the early stages of the game... why not go back there if anything else fails?

Your comparisons are just plane wrong.
The ISU doesn't have a range of 40, like the Brummbär, thus you can easily avoid tank combat. You also seem to forget that bigger 6 men squads are rarely getting wiped.

The ISU, also doesn't have a reload of at least one minute, so you can't compare it with the Sturmtiger.

Same goes for panzerwerfer and stuka. High reload & can't spot for themselves. Especially the panzerwerfer needs to be driven close to the enemy in order to do any damage because of that horrible scatter.

I like the changes because it removes the units out of the game. No longer you can park your super unit behind a wall of at guns and mines and safely destroy the enemy force.
Now the emphasis lies again on tank combat, micro and baiting.

The ISU and Jagdtiger feel just out of place in the CoH mechanics.

I wouldn't consider these comparisons wrong at all. The ISU is lauded bacause it is a 70 range Anti-inf monster. I am not arguing that it is imbalanced. In fact, I was not even comparing this unit directly to any german unit. I was merely relying to sierra's post in which he states that there is no comparable AI vehicle for the germans, in response to which I stated that these units are just that. Germans have the tools, and they are good tools. They just need to be used more.

Light tanks and Armoured Cars vs Elefant Tank Destroyer? Not really any basis for an argument. I know you're just going to comeback and say "ISU vs Infantry", you can apply that argument when they build me an Infantry squad that can take at least 2 direct ISU hits before dying.

Infantry against direct fire, heavily armored howitzer? Not really any basis for an argument.


C WUT I DID THAR?

Also, why won't we make soviet and usf lights take 2 shots as well? Unless its one of your cases of heavy double standards.

I wouldn't consider these comparisons wrong at all. The ISU is lauded bacause it is a 70 range Anti-inf monster. I am not arguing that it is imbalanced. In fact, I was not even comparing this unit directly to any german unit. I was merely relying to sierra's post in which he states that there is no comparable AI vehicle for the germans, in response to which I stated that these units are just that. Germans have the tools, and they are good tools. They just need to be used more.

The anti-infantry capabilites are not the problem imo. The ISU always had that, although with a higher scatter.
The problem lies that the unit is anti everything and likewise destroys your tanks.

Ostheer has Brummbar which is actually pretty good.

The biggest problem comes from the range it can fire/see + mobility.

Elefant is not really a problem anymore because of it's narrow spotting cone when activated + it does not kill infantry and is really slow so very prone to being flanked or engine disabled by handheld AT and even you can just do infantry pushes next to an elefant while ignoring it, hell even just bring AT guns into firing range I mean not really a problem.

The thing with ISU is that because of the spotting cone, autofire and firing range it will kill incoming infantry before them even being able to spot the ISU and the ISU when turning off spotting cone becomes quite mobile being able to get out of harms way relatively easy.

There are multiple solutions to this, either make it see less far, shoot less far or make every shot require player action so people have to actively control the ISU.

The problem with Jagdtiger really is the range at which it can fire trough anything. I think the easy solution for this is just make every shot require player action because honestly these things are very fragile for their cost and even though they take some time to kill once you get up close with other tanks, AT guns or some infantry they will just be chain shocked from all the incoming fire and die like a fly.

The anti-infantry capabilites are not the problem imo. The ISU always had that, although with a higher scatter.
The problem lies that the unit is anti everything and likewise destroys your tanks.

The anti-tank of the ISU I actually find to not be all that bad. Maybe it's because I usually go for panthers which have the ability to dodge and tank so well, but I fear the ISU for the AI. Either way, I honestly thought the HE/ AP shells were the best idea for balance. Regardless, it's definetly balanced now, since an assault against it will either require large ISU micro, or large non-ISU micro which will render it invalid.

It was a very pleasant experience reading the patch notes. Nerfing the ISU to the point where it's almost useless in 1v1s is just PERFECT. Exactly how I want these super-tanks to be like.

I don't care what arguments you are pulling out, it is a shitty unit that's incredibly boring to play with/against and to watch. People arguing that it shouldn't have been nerfed are making me feel good.

There are many better ways to deal with ISU and JT problem. Reduce aoe, remove JT superpower etc...
If you are talking about squads wiping, tell me something. If you know there is ISU why dont you use vehicle to uncover map? You will get hit, but you will also know where is ISU. Then use just elephant, JT, Stuka, KT... There are some many ways to deal with that...
If they make ISU useless SU will have only IS2 which wont handle elephant, KT, JT.

In previous versions such super heavy long ranged units like Elefant, Jagdtiger and ISU were almost standard units for the huge impact on the game they had. The range nerf was a great first step, but they were still extremely strong.

I think this change is great and I'd really urge people to try it for some weeks before posting on the forums. The ISU should be a unit that you sometimes see, not one you see in every game. Considering it takes up almost 1/4 of your armies popcap it required close to no micro in the previous iteration. This is now changed and the requirements are somewhat in line with the value and cost of the unit. Same of course for the Jagdtiger.

It might need some changes to the rotation speed / firing animation etc, that's all possible. Yet in order to figure that out, this change needs to be tested first and directly shouting "UNDO!" does not help. I'd rather have such interesting changes to the mechanics of a unit, that really make them stand out than probably just nerfing it's raw power. If a unit is strong, but only if well microed then this adds a chance for the player to show his skills.