What do you think of an SU-85 buff?

It doesn't perform well against anything above a medium. I don't think it is a call-in meta issue. THe call-in meta may lead to the unit not being built, but it still performs rather poorly as a TD.

Huh? Its just the other way around. The Su85 performs relatively better against heavies than against mediums, the JT of course excluded. 1 on 1, against a PIV, the outcome depends heavily on the terrain, it might be 50/50 overall. The Panther however will get the better of it virtually without fail. On the other hand, the Su 85 shines against the Tiger in particular, since the latter isnt usually fast enough to close the distance unless you mismicro (same with the KT), and in addition, Soviet T1/T4 synergises particularly well against the usually encountered Tiger/Pak combo.

I was confused at the title and thought you meant the SU-76 which is such,such,such garbage. SU-85 is why I build T4. It's great, but it used to be better because its front armor was nigh impervious to PZ4 shells.

It doesn't perform well against anything above a medium. I don't think it is a call-in meta issue. THe call-in meta may lead to the unit not being built, but it still performs rather poorly as a TD.

You do know there are only a select few call-in tanks that are above a medium? Even a panther is considered medium armor. To be honest, it shouldn't perform great against heavy tanks to begin with excepting a wall of them. And against the slower heavy tanks (such as the OKW king tiger) the SU85s actually perform quite well because the long sight and range takes advantage of this units slow speed (and once they get vet for the pen boost then they really shine).

I disagree it performs poorly as a TD if used properly. It performs great as a long-range TD. It shouldn't be much stronger as it is if at all because its true strength lies in its range coupled with it's increased sight which allows it to snipe tanks (and sometimes snipe infantry). Pretty much the whole time before WFA this unit was an absolute beast bordering OP. (Anyone else remember the unbeatable SU85 + sniper spam?) However, it is hard to say absolutely atm because the meta is a bit fucked.

I think definitely wait until the call-in meta is fixed before rushing to buff other units that will see a boost in use with this change. Once the meta changes and the battlefield is seeing a different mix of units and it is still lackluster, then consider some buffs but from my experience against other tanks of it's level it performs well.

You do know there are only a select few call-in tanks that are above a medium? Even a panther is considered medium armor. To be honest, it shouldn't perform great against heavy tanks to begin with excepting a wall of them. And against the slower heavy tanks (such as the OKW king tiger) the SU85s actually perform quite well because the long sight and range takes advantage of this units slow speed (and once they get vet for the pen boost then they really shine).

I disagree it performs poorly as a TD if used properly. It performs great as a long-range TD. It shouldn't be much stronger as it is if at all because its true strength lies in its range coupled with it's increased sight which allows it to snipe tanks (and sometimes snipe infantry). Pretty much the whole time before WFA this unit was an absolute beast bordering OP. (Anyone else remember the unbeatable SU85 + sniper spam?) However, it is hard to say absolutely atm because the meta is a bit fucked.

I think definitely wait until the call-in meta is fixed before rushing to buff other units that will see a boost in use with this change. Once the meta changes and the battlefield is seeing a different mix of units and it is still lackluster, then consider some buffs but from my experience against other tanks of it's level it performs well.

Still has 320 front armor, which is more than the Tiger has. Soviet non doctrinal AT, where are you??

Pretty much the whole time before WFA this unit was an absolute beast bordering OP. (Anyone else remember the unbeatable SU85 + sniper spam?)

No, the Su85 was nerfed to oblivion months before WFA. March deployment, april, may - these were NOT Su-85 friendly months.

The Su85 suffered a series of crippling nerfs. It was much more mobile, could rotate like a motherfucker, and the vision ability did not slow it down. I am pretty sure its frontal armour could deflect most panzer shots. It was steadily nerfed.

But this was in the olden times. Way back, when tanks costs and teching costs were completely different. Back when there were no Jacksons and Kingtigers and Jagdtigers. Back when the ISU was a laughing stock.

"It was overpowered before!" okay, yes. "Therefore do not buff it ever again!" <-- logic fail. The unit should suffer forever for having been overpowered in a three-month period a year ago?

No, the Su85 was nerfed to oblivion months before WFA. March deployment, april, may - these were NOT Su-85 friendly months.

The Su85 suffered a series of crippling nerfs. It was much more mobile, could rotate like a motherfucker, and the vision ability did not slow it down. I am pretty sure its frontal armour could deflect most panzer shots. It was steadily nerfed.

But this was in the olden times. Way back, when tanks costs and teching costs were completely different. Back when there were no Jacksons and Kingtigers and Jagdtigers. Back when the ISU was a laughing stock.

"It was overpowered before!" okay, yes. "Therefore do not buff it ever again!" <-- logic fail. The unit should suffer forever for having been overpowered in a three-month period a year ago?

I never once said what you are accusing me of a 'logic fail'. What I'm saying is this unit was OP before so it could easily become OP again if it's not managed correctly. It is something important to consider, not the entirety of my argument.

As I ended my previous post with, wait until the meta changes then see how this unit performs rather than giving it buffs when it still probably won't be used due to the call-in meta. This is a much more reasonable approached than calling for blanket buffs for a unit that we can't even see how it performs properly at the moment because the meta is fucked.

I never once said what you are accusing me of a 'logic fail'. What I'm saying is this unit was OP before so it could easily become OP again if it's not managed correctly. It is something important to consider, not the entirety of my argument.

As I ended my previous post with, wait until the meta changes then see how this unit performs rather than giving it buffs when it still probably won't be used due to the call-in meta. This is a much more reasonable approached than calling for blanket buffs for a unit that we can't even see how it performs properly at the moment because the meta is fucked.

I agree with everything you just said, sorry if I misread your tone and for being a bit dismissive. We are actually saying the exact same thing - a unit should be viewed through the lenses of the meta, not in a vacuum. The Su85 nerfs were put in effect so long ago that the tanks it used to fight (and the infantry supporting both sides) are completely different now. I completely agree that callins meta is preventing us from evaluating core units. That said, it is my position that the Su85 currently underperforms for cost, not because I want the glory days back, but because the medium tanks it's supposed to counter can a) flank it easily, b) penetrate it at all times, and its poor mobility means the Axis superior antitank infantry support can chase it off in an engagement and/or hunt it down effortlessly.

An example how I think meta affects this discussion : if the Su-85 had the exact same stats and was up against the same tanks as now, but Soviets had Schrecks instead of the Germans (let's say parallel universe) I would probably think it is completely fine as is.

i think all soviets faction need rebalance. testers lames

I am not sure a change in the meta will really help decide the direction of SU85 buffs. The SU85 still faces the same tanks regardless of the call-in meta or not. I would even say call-in meta is primarily a Soviet thing.

One of the problems the 85 faces is that its forte, 60 range, has been made much less important over the course of this year. It used to be matched (and outranged) only and exclusively by the Elefant (not counting PaKs of course), and could have at least sniped stuff from afar.

Now Panthers are seen every game (except Wehr 1v1's), and they have 50 range, which gives much less margin of error than the usual 40. JagdpzIV have 60 (and huge ambush bonuses). I won't mention the Jagdtiger in light of recent changes, but it was a huge part of the meta.

And there are long-range allied units that are part of the meta (like Jackson, b4, ISU) so the Su85's one strong point is all but unneeded.

Looking forward to the new meta with nerfed ISU and JT.

One of the problems the 85 faces is that its forte, 60 range, has been made much less important over the course of this year. It used to be matched (and outranged) only and exclusively by the Elefant (not counting PaKs of course), and could have at least sniped stuff from afar.

Now Panthers are seen every game (except Wehr 1v1's), and they have 50 range, which gives much less margin of error than the usual 40. JagdpzIV have 60 (and huge ambush bonuses). I won't mention the Jagdtiger in light of recent changes, but it was a huge part of the meta.

And there are long-range allied units that are part of the meta (like Jackson, b4, ISU) so the Su85's one strong point is all but unneeded.

Looking forward to the new meta with nerfed ISU and JT.

I agree completely. I always felt that the SU85 was a stopgap counter until you could get out an IS2 or ISU152. With the buffs to the Panther (better gun, and armor, etc). the SU85 is quite lacking. Like DrChengele said, Panthers are pretty much in every game 2v2 and higher.

Do you really see that many Jagdpanzer IVs? I never see it and rarely ever build it. It is inaccurate, unvetted, and since it has to hit to gain veterancy you can see the problem of it actually getting to those nice vet bonuses.

I think the jagdpanzer is great. It hasn't made many appearances in my tournament for some reason but when it does show up it performs quite well.

Jagdpanzer needs support. But it can 1v1 many Allied tanks

I mostly play team games, plenty of JPIVs there. Guess they get to shine a bit more easy in a target rich environment.

A small mobility buff would be nice.

I think the jagdpanzer is great. It hasn't made many appearances in my tournament for some reason but when it does show up it performs quite well.

Because medic truck is less desirable than resource truck, and Panther much much better for only 40 fuel more. Not only can't the Jadgpanzer spot for itself like the SU-85, but still gets to be completely blind to anything not infront of it. I love the Jagdpanzer as a vehicle, but as a unit and where it is in OKW, I think it's pretty lackluster.

hey guys, the isu152 got nerfed. everyone, lets move to the su85!!!!

Because medic truck is less desirable than resource truck, and Panther much much better for only 40 fuel more. Not only can't the Jadgpanzer spot for itself like the SU-85, but still gets to be completely blind to anything not infront of it. I love the Jagdpanzer as a vehicle, but as a unit and where it is in OKW, I think it's pretty lackluster.

It actually performs rather well, but OKW has better AT available sooner (puma) or slightly later (panther) that makes this turretless tank obsolete. If something of the sort were in the hands of USF/SU, then it would be anything but lackluster.

I agree with everything you just said, sorry if I misread your tone and for being a bit dismissive. We are actually saying the exact same thing - a unit should be viewed through the lenses of the meta, not in a vacuum. The Su85 nerfs were put in effect so long ago that the tanks it used to fight (and the infantry supporting both sides) are completely different now. I completely agree that callins meta is preventing us from evaluating core units. That said, it is my position that the Su85 currently underperforms for cost, not because I want the glory days back, but because the medium tanks it's supposed to counter can a) flank it easily, b) penetrate it at all times, and its poor mobility means the Axis superior antitank infantry support can chase it off in an engagement and/or hunt it down effortlessly.

An example how I think meta affects this discussion : if the Su-85 had the exact same stats and was up against the same tanks as now, but Soviets had Schrecks instead of the Germans (let's say parallel universe) I would probably think it is completely fine as is.

No problem, I'm glad we agree. I feel the same about the performance for cost. It is quite expensive for what you currently get out of it and Ostheer have the same issue with T4. Everything you get from that tier is not cost effective. This is another reason why we are in this call-in meta trap.

I would still like to see it used more in a correct meta before making actual changes. I also think this unit performs a lot worse vs OKW than vs Ostheer (mostly because of the panther and mass volks shreks).