Are Tigers Necessary?

Hello everyone. I want to know your thoughts on the necessity of the Tiger tank. I am a 4v4 player, but I would love to hear input from everybody (especially those in 1v1 and 2v2).

All of my buddies tell me to pick a commander with a Tiger tank in it. However, I find that I can get away with just going combined arms + teching straight to Panther, which I think is a monster tank.

It's not really that Ostheer T4 is bad, it's just that tiger tanks are so much more fuel efficient. A tiger is better and costs LESS to get your first one, making it the pretty obvious choice in most situations.

Pretty much as above, call in's for the original factions just make more sense.

Saying that, vs USF, Ostheer t3 does fine with Pak support.

Against Soviets, your probably gonna face call in's. So your gonna need to be in a good position and make your tech really count for that gap between when your 1st tank hits the field and they get the CP'S for a call in. Easier said then done, as stalling out ain't that difficult usually.

Ostheer T1+T2 and stall out to Tiger is a pretty safe way to go.

In 4v4 what you are doing now as:

T1, T2, T4 is perfectly viable

Indeed I would recommend you do that, possibly including some T3 at some point so you can see what they are like.

This is on the grounds that you should know the core before you mess with call ins

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I don't play much of the smaller games, but there there is less fuel and less time, so it will take you longer to tech up to Panthers, you won't be able to build as many, and you won't get as much use out of them as you would in 4v4


4v4 though you will can get your first panther out way before the 11CP mark you need for Tigers, especially if you are playing with OKW.

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Tigers are very good though, they are a sturdy, useful, generalist tank and the skills you learn from using other tanks will apply.


Panthers are not so hot versus infantry, and especially Zis and are best viewed as a tough tank destroyer rather than a tank per se.


The other great thing abut Tigers, is that they are in several doctrines and all of them are good. IS2s are only in two doctrines and one of those is not so hot.

Tigers however are in:

Assault Support

Lightning War

Mech Assault

Spearhead


All of which have something going for them, you could equip 3 of those doctrines and nothing else and have a good choice of options



As noted above though, I'd suggest you start out without call ins, let us know what commanders you have and we can make suggestions.

I honestly don't think the Germans have a bad commander in 4v4, it's a question of what fits your style

okay, thanks Van Voort. I will let people know which commanders I have when I get home.

I feel that Ostheer has a bunch of viable commanders for 4v4, since their nondoctrinal units are quite effective.

this is what i have


Blitzkrieg
Lightning War
Mobile Defense
Spearhead
storm
Festung Armor
Festung Support
Fortified Armor
German Infantry
German Mechanized
Jaeger Armor
Joint Operations

Tigers are hardly necessary nowadays. Panther has better armor, is faster, roughly the same AT capability but only slightly less AI. Also P4s are amazing AI units that can engage other medium tanks efficiently. Realistically, if you've been losing the first 15 minutes, haven't pick a commander, and need something to get you back on the field, Tiger is a great choice because you don't need to waste fuel teching, but if you're in a well secured position with fuel to burn, I'd say go for T4. This way, you can use your doctrinal choice to give you an extra edge that you otherwise wouldn't have if you picked a Tiger commander (I.E. a good strafe/strafes, Pak43, artillery, etc)

I admit though, Spearhead is easily my favorite Ostheer commander, just because the Mortar HT provides such a great compliment to LMG Grens, making clearing multiple maxims from an area much easier, in addition to the get-out-of-jail-free card that Panzer Tactician provides. Honestly, with Spearhead, Tiger is just icing on the cake, I'd love a commander that has Panzer Tactician and the Mortar HT, but with something other than a Tiger as a call-in/other doctrinal ability.

Well then:

Blitzkrieg

Very good vanilla option to learn the faction and one I am using a lot myself.

Anything with Panzer Tactician gives you the get out of jail free card for your armour, combine with Blitz and you see why Allied players get frustrated with Axis armour and why mines are important


Recon is good, especially in team games and it is something that OKW totally lack


Command Tank will stack with your panthers and provide a little better AI

37mm strafe is a handy cap stone


Lightning War

G43s will be a revelation

Tigers are cool as noted


Mobile Defense

Pass on this for now, it can supplement T4 build, but often you will find Panthers out before Pumas so it's a bit meh for team games and changes too much from core

Spearhead

The Mortor Half Track is excellent for urban battles and versus static Soviet T2 play

Panzer Tactician + Recon + Tigers + Bombs

There is nothing in there that you won't want

Storm

Bit meh, avoid


Festung Armour

Has smoke and Command Tank.

Hull down can be useful but is static

PAK 43 is not so hot in team games

Railway Artillery is powerful but often random and easy to dodge

Festung Support

Has the MHT, and call in smoke

On map artillery not so hot

Sector Artillery is apparently very good


Fortified Armour

Is good even without the elephant, which now doesn't do anything that a Jagdtiger cannot

However, you don't have to call in the elephant and the rest of it is handy without it; plus it is nice to have the option.

Jaeger Armour

Has in built counters to the things that counter elephants, ie: On Map Artillery.

Not to be sneezed at against Soviets who are using B4s for example

German Infantry

Go with this is you want heavy infantry play. The Artillery Officer goesvery well with mortors and even better with Panzerwerfers

Lacks recon however

Mechanised

A collection of mediocre abilities that are available in better commanders and one that is bascially rubbish


Joint Operations

This is vanilla, but that's fine, vanilla is classic

You can get good mileage out of Recon + Artillery Barrage

Artillery Officer can be very good, the other two abilities give you options

It doesn't have Panzer Tactician, but that will at least ensure you don't use it as a crutch

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I would certainly take Blitzkrieg, then probably Joint Operations, rest as to what fits your style

Edit:

Jaeger Armour is the only thing there with Recon + Bomb Strike to counter B4s, so you should consider having the option just for that

Other commanders have recon + strike, but their strike will not be as good versus Artillery

I think the necessity of Tigers decreases with game size 2vs2 and higher a Panther can do good here too as long as you are premade in random search, well take only docs with tiger and elefant, reason is simply that your ally is mostly not trustworthy, with a premade ally you can basicallly play every doc because he can cover your weaknesses

but 1vs1 it is diffrent here, i personally only use Tiger docs cause you can use them on any map and the Tiger has certain advantages 1vs1 but be aware i dont have any of the dlc commanders, they can change things listed below:

1: the Tiger deals with infantry, i find in 1vs1 enemy infantry is your main problem, especially against USF if he has a map were he can defend easily and you are forced to attack cause you dont have many vps left (best example is road to kharkov),

2: he costs less then most other Breakthrough weapons, because most time you need t3 and a p4 before you can get the fancy t4 stuff so it would delay your breakthrough options even further which will cost you the game or give the enemy time to get guns on the field which will make your Panther to an endangered species

3: you will get a Tiger faster then a Panther and an addiotional Pwerfer and time in 1vs1 is very important, you dont have any of it to waste
also dont get an brumm, 80% of the time its not cost effective and its ineffective against infantry (too low rof) his main job is breaking fortifications which it does very good and if you use it against Inf use attack ground to get atleast some deadly effects, it wont hit anything with auto fire (same goes for the ISU)

4: it has a effect on the morale on many players the will often focus it and have a greed to kill it, which you can use to lure them into traps like at guns, minefields etc. especially they will get blind for other things sometimes,

5: its also easier to watch and keep alive then 2-3 units for the same role, also if you see an AT gun you cant capture destroy it

nah, tigers arent required but it definitely does make things a little easier. panthers are just as good at dealing with armor, and its nice to have other doctrinal options. jaeger armor is especially good in team games since it coutners the b4 very hard with recon run + stuka strike.

I hate how Panthers cant deal with Infantry...I mean they just suck at it. Good adversaries wont even respect them. Plus it feels like it takes ages to get them...really they should have more AI capabilities, given the cost.

When your facing late game Soviets with Vet2-3 Shocktroops, that just bull rush all your infantry units...youll be grateful you can throw a tiger in their face.

use machine guns to completely suppress infantry, and you should still have a few vet 3 lmg gren squads if youre unit preservation isnt absolutely bad.

Tigers are really good against certain types of Soviet Strategies. Against Soviet blob or mass tier 1 strategies, you'll be hard pressed to hold on while teching to tier 3. Usually the strategy is a ton of conscripts, 2 shock squads and constant flanking and attacks. Even with 2 MG's you can barely hold on.

The tiger will turn the tide quick and have some durability against the inevitable IS2 or T34/85 double call in. If you rush to tier 3 you'll only have one panzer IV against their 2 t34's or IS2 because the soviets had so much map control early game. It can be pretty tough to keep it alive even with paks and panzer grenadiers and it is hard to push forward with it. A tiger can push frontally against double AT guns and have most shots bounce off its front armor. It can beat any AT gun one on one without much damage.

Against Americans that do the same thing, the USF has worse AT and worse armor and has more trouble dealing with a tiger. Only a P47 rocket strike or m10/m36 can take on a tiger and the m10 and m36 is really vulnerable to paks and shreks (though it's gun can actually penetrate well against Tiger frontal armor). Americans won't bother to get an m10 first because its so useless against Infantry.

That being said, you don't need a tiger but it's really useful against the blob or mass tier 1 strat.

I think panther work best in team games supporting OKW KT and/or a mobile volks shreak blob (good vision with vet) that allied tanks cant kite due to the panther. The panther vet quicker to vet2 for great armor, less MP drain from pop cap, more range and mobility than OH tigers to support KT against any allied tanks and easily move out of P47 range. On open maps vet0 tigers are to slow supporting OKM imo and with luftwaffe doc OH can use fuel drops to rush both a OH panther (first) and OKW KT (second). Or alternative OH could use fuel drops to rush P4 first and then OKW panther (second), KT (third). Either way, fuel drops give more flexibility in team tech choices rather than fuel caches. Same with munition drops late game to support both players call-in arty options depending on need. With ISU nerf I can imagine more shock players will go either B4 or IS2 and this is when luftwaffe and storm doc start to shine in team games.

But in random team games its hard to make this team coordination work well but potentially luftwaffe + storm doc should become more popular in AT matches with the coming patch.

Early-mid game OKW benefit more from fuel drops than fuel caches. If OKW go fortication doc and use stalling tactics with pak43/volks shreaks + pak40 from OH to defend one fuel point a panther/KT rush should be a rather safe build. Especially with the coming nerf to ISU which indirectly buff KT and Pak43 (no IL-2 bombs from ISU doctrines to counter pak43 and luftwaffe/storm hard counter B4 with stuka bomb).

You can do whatever you want in a 4v4.

lately i have been using command tanks and pak gun combos to get T4 out and panther ASAP and they seem better than Tigers. Tiger isn't as fast, doesn't kill tanks as well and if you are going to build multiple during a game then the fuel disparity drops as each panther is 170 fuel plus tech cost and tiger is I believe 230...do wish they would lower the tech cost or make tiger require T3 or T4 building to make more variation..same thing with soviet heavy call in tanks.

Against Americans that do the same thing, the USF has worse AT and worse armor and has more trouble dealing with a tiger. Only a P47 rocket strike or m10/m36 can take on a tiger
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US has the best non doctrinal tank destroyer in game, you sir are not aware of jacksons 2 of them can kill a tiger in seconds usually in 2v2 3 jacksons are best they will eat all armor none of their shots fail to penetrate as far as i have seen(i use 3 armor pen bulletins may be that gives it an edge).