Getting Rid of "Crutch" Units

I was browsing a topic on the official COH forums and came upon a thread discussing the early arrival of the OKW Puma. Here is a quote that i found quite interesting

"The Puma is a life-line for early game if the allies are using any light vehicles or armor of any description, as it takes the OKW a whopping 295 fuel (minimal teching costs and unit cost), without making any outside purchases, to gain access to their first and only dedicated heavy anti-armor unit that has the mobility and defenses to deal with allied threats effectively."

Now i started thinking, "Why are these "crutch" units allowed to exist? By "crutch" i mean these units are the only things keeping that faction in the game, no matter how OP, annoying, unrealistic, or silly it may be. I can think of several other examples:

1. Maxim spam due to bad Soviet core infantry
2. ISU152 being good at AI and decent at AT probably since Soviets have no heavy AT
3. LMG Grens being super good (because you got nothing else to build)
4. Schrecks on Volks because Raketen is unreliable

I don't think Relic ever intended to "force" us into using a particular unit. I am sure they want players to experiment and use different units. However, players have learned which are units"good" and which are unreliable (bad). This leads to players defending a unit that may be OP because the alternative would be very unfavorable.

I personally think that these "crutch" units should be fixed and/or their alternatives changed/buffed. I am not asking for all factions to be the same, but i think some units and upgrades are just a no-brainer. To make matters worse, factions lack varied units because all of the other alternatives are commander-specific. This issue may also seem worse depending on what is the dominant meta

Relic needs to open up more RELIABLE alternatives for players. This could be done via adding more nondoc units or alternative counters more reliable and better. I am tired of seeing the same unit(s) and upgrades being made over and over.

Tell me what you think

1. Maxims have never been op. They're annoying but at the same time easy to deal with.
2. Your whole point doesn't make any sense. OKW has plenty of alternatives to the puma even though it is the best option. (Schreck Volks, Jagdpanzer, Raketen)
3. Panther isn't effective at all.

I get the feeling that you're one of those forum gurus who likes to argue about a game that he doesn't play.
(no offense)

I've never built a puma as OKW.


I have thus far found Shreks and Raketwefers to be all I need.


I've killed plenty though; they are pretty fragile and people think they are a tank, which they are not.


I've killed them with AT Grenade Volleys, Guards will eat them and in one case someone sat it there and let me throw a satchel charge under it without moving it (I presume his attention was elsewhere "because Soviet T1 has no AT")


At the times when it is the best AT vehicle available, I don't need an AT vehicle.

I get the feeling that you're one of those forum gurus who likes to argue about a game that he doesn't play.
(no offense)

Nah, WJ installed comparatively recently which is why his player card is relatively empty


44.7 hours played in the last two weeks

That's almost exactly the same as Somenjorn or Napalm

Twice as much the BeltFedWombat


Half as much as me, but as noted I don't sleep

The Puma doesn't cost 295 fuel. If you rush it, it costs 30-40 (the tech cost for the truck) + 100 fuel for the unit itself. Or is it even lower like 70, not totally sure because I don't like to play OKW in it's current state that much. But no way it's 295, that's for sure.

By rushing it the puma actually counters soviet T3 before the soviet player can even have any T3 vehicles on the field. Also it comes at the same time with USF M20 or a bit earlier than the AAHT, both of which it counters.

295 fuel is referring to the Panther I assume. That number is incorrect though, as OKW starts with 40 fuel so it's really 255 (40 for T2 or T3 but -40 for starting fuel, 80 for T4, 175 for Panther). Puma is 70 fuel.

Post also disregards the Jagdpanzer, which can come at 135 fuel (40 for T2 but start with 40, 135 for the unit)

OKW is crutch central though, without the crutches they're worthless.

OKW's crutches are Panzerschrecks on Volks, Obersoldaten, and Vet 5. To a lesser extent you can include the Puma and some other things I cannot remember (it's been a long day).

Why does OKW need crutches? Because it was designed to be crippled, go figure

I find this "crutch" units concept quite interesting. But what units and why, this is a little debatable. For instance, I would agree that Puma can be included in this cathegory, but not with ISU. ISU is not just a heavy AT, it has excellent AI capabilities. Main infantry should be the backbone of an army, so from this point of view I can't consider grenadiers a "crutch" unit. For soviets, you can start with T1 or T2 both starts being viable. So maxim won't be a "crutch" unit in my view eather.
Comming back to Puma, it depends on what enemy does and against what faction you play. If your enemy will go on infantry intensive tactics, you won't need it tbh. But in most situations he will try to build vehicles fast and many because he knows you can't do the same. In this situation yes, Puma is a "crutch" unit.

1. Maxims have never been op. They're annoying but at the same time easy to deal with.
2. Your whole point doesn't make any sense. OKW has plenty of alternatives to the puma even though it is the best option. (Schreck Volks, Jagdpanzer, Raketen)
3. Panther isn't effective at all.

I get the feeling that you're one of those forum gurus who likes to argue about a game that he doesn't play.
(no offense)

Perhaps i did not get my message clearly through. The message i am trying to convey is that, judging from the player buzz, people feel they are "forced" into certain units because the next best thing is a piece of crap. Not sure if your 3rd point is sarcasm, but lets jsut say, if the Ost players want more infantry flexibility, he or she ahs to get commander-specific units/upgrades. So due to the design of the game, you are pigeonholed into Grenadiers all day.

Sorry if my examples weren't the best

295 fuel is referring to the Panther I assume. That number is incorrect though, as OKW starts with 40 fuel so it's really 255 (40 for T2 or T3 but -40 for starting fuel, 80 for T4, 175 for Panther). Puma is 70 fuel.

Post also disregards the Jagdpanzer, which can come at 135 fuel (40 for T2 but start with 40, 135 for the unit)

I quoted it from a thread on the official forums. you can view it here http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/coh-2-balance-feedback/111505-puma-comes-to-early-in-my-opinion

I find this "crutch" units concept quite interesting. But what units and why, this is a little debatable. For instance, I would agree that Puma can be included in this cathegory, but not with ISU. ISU is not just a heavy AT, it has excellent AI capabilities. Main infantry should be the backbone of an army, so from this point of view I can't consider grenadiers a "crutch" unit. For soviets, you can start with T1 or T2 both starts being viable. So maxim won't be a "crutch" unit in my view eather.
Comming back to Puma, it depends on what enemy does and against what faction you play. If your enemy will go on infantry intensive tactics, you won't need it tbh. But in most situations he will try to build vehicles fast and many because he knows you can't do the same. In this situation yes, Puma is a "crutch" unit.

I apologize for the "not go good" examples. I still think the game could be more. Looking at all the comments about schrecked volks and how good they are is a good example. THey are very effective throughout the game, but the next alternative (that doesn't cost fuel build) is raketen which people say is trash.

I think people maxim spam because cons lack fighting ability. People wouldn't be making so many and annoying players if COns could be a bit better. In this case the maxim is a "crutch" because your core infantry unit performs poorly. Same thing goes with the sniper vs OKW. People complain that there is no other way to deal with the powerful OKW units, so they rely on snipers to keep them in the game.

PLease tell me if you need more clarification. i hope i fleshed out my point a little bit ore

I was browsing a topic on the official COH forums and came upon a thread discussing the early arrival of the OKW Puma. Here is a quote that i found quite interesting

"The Puma is a life-line for early game if the allies are using any light vehicles or armor of any description, as it takes the OKW a whopping 295 fuel (minimal teching costs and unit cost), without making any outside purchases, to gain access to their first and only dedicated heavy anti-armor unit that has the mobility and defenses to deal with allied threats effectively."

Now i started thinking, "Why are these "crutch" units allowed to exist? By "crutch" i mean these units are the only things keeping that faction in the game, no matter how OP, annoying, unrealistic, or silly it may be. I can think of several other examples:

1. Maxim spam due to bad Soviet core infantry
2. ISU152 being good at AI and decent at AT probably since Soviets have no heavy AT
3. LMG Grens being super good (because you got nothing else to build)
4. Schrecks on Volks because Raketen is unreliable

I don't think Relic ever intended to "force" us into using a particular unit. I am sure they want players to experiment and use different units. However, players have learned which are units"good" and which are unreliable (bad). This leads to players defending a unit that may be OP because the alternative would be very unfavorable.

I personally think that these "crutch" units should be fixed and/or their alternatives changed/buffed. I am not asking for all factions to be the same, but i think some units and upgrades are just a no-brainer. To make matters worse, factions lack varied units because all of the other alternatives are commander-specific. This issue may also seem worse depending on what is the dominant meta

Relic needs to open up more RELIABLE alternatives for players. This could be done via adding more nondoc units or alternative counters more reliable and better. I am tired of seeing the same unit(s) and upgrades being made over and over.

Tell me what you think

okw has tons of good anti tank units, they are just in different tiers. volksschrecks is a core unit, they can synergize with pumas/jadgpanzers/rakaten well enough to scare away light vehicles. okw wont crumble to bits without puma, they can still combat competitively using a different set of playstyle.

a good example of a crutch unit will be elite infantry for the soviets. soviet core infantry are pretty abysmal, scale badly and offer nothing in late game. guards bring in desperately needed ranged firepower and shocks are durable and deadly in CQC to beat late game german infantry. without these units, soviets infantry lines will crumble, ALL THE TIME. even now, it is not a perfect balance, obers can still a move all infantry to hell with that absurd dps on lmg34. quite expensive but too damn efficient, durable in almost all situations unless they meet tanks, not sure why they havent been nerfed but that is another issue.

ZiS is also another good example of a crutch unit. horrible but essential. soviet has got no proper AT until su85 which has a whole plethora of issues but that's another issue. t34/76 doesnt count since it comes so late, its more AI than AT and when its out, it is effectively checked by pumas/rakenten with schreck support. in the end, no matter what kind of soviet tanks, be it t34/76, t34/85 or is2, without the ZiS for 60range AT support and fallback point, soviet tanks cannot effectively mount an armoured assault especially when jagdpanzers/pumas/panthers can all penetrate that paper thin armour on medium tanks and do a good number on is2 which is outranged by all those tanks.

in all my games, i always need these units or else i cannot respond to threats properly. maxims can be replaced with good scout car + penal play, mortars can be replaced by snipers but nothing can replace elite infantry and ZiS AT guns.

as for grens/rifles, they are core units. like volks, they must be massed in numbers because they are rarely replaced by elite infantry later in the game, thus they must scale well later in the game. however, grens are scaling way too well, bars are perfect in terms of scaling, they bring a lot of close to mid range firepower but only give a small boost to long range which doesnt fuck up rifle infantry combat in general, but people being people, grens somehow must have 150% their entire squad long range firepower in a single LMG else they will hemorrhage axis tears to flood the world, because fuck balance, thats why.

I build a Puma about fifty per cent of the time as OKW. I have only so-so micro skillz so I don't get the utility out of it other players do.

Volks OTOH are a no-brainer as they have decent AT and scale very, very well with veterancy. My first building is always the one the puma comes out of though, so it's tempting and I struggle to keep the AA halfie alive.