Help vs USF ,,,this is just ridiculous

Agree that this is one hard thing to counter...my favorite move is lay s mines and hope he hits one on maps where I know it will be at...like Semoisky and kholodny then go for AP rounds which will finish it in seconds...

if that doesn't work and it often doesn't then going with a 222 and trying to micro in front to block it as well as start shredding its armor is great....by blocking the unit you can keep it from kiting your inf and actually land a faust.

Ok srsly...

The damned early game infy for US is ridiculous...they just bum rush right through....with minimum micro, even the MG42 is usless...

Thanks

I am having fair amount of success using panzer grenadier vs US RF blobs they seem to be extremely effective vs Rifleman keep your 222 far behind and PGs infront, cut down your T1 grenadiers to save for T2 PGs,

mix atelast 1 or 2 of them along with grenaiders and you should see the difference plus in late game you can always upgrade them to shrecks and put them next your pak40 to cover you armor retreat.

Although many say mechanized commander is useless the half track with PGs in is a infy killing machine.

Here's an *average* example of how to defeat a US player

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  VS

  Americans vs. Wehrmacht

  by: Gbpirate map: Faymonville Approach

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My opponent went Rifle company to E8s, but neglected to get even a single light vehicle, which was quite stupid.

The best example this replay gives is more or less individual gren vs. rifle combat. I had a difficult time playing even when my opponent's micro was not as good as mine, seeing as I lost zero squads to his many yet struggled to dominate the map control game.
Many instances I played cat and mouse games with his rifles, attacked at many places at once (thus splitting up his forces) and used other units to support my Grens/Pgrens

I got a PaK as soon as I saw his LT, but it ended up being useful only in the end against E8s.
My unit composition at the end of the game was as follows:
3x Gren
1x Pio (flamer)
1x Pgren
1x AG
1x PaK 40
1x Stug III E
1x P4
waiting for tiger...
This was a balanced force; after my P4 i was floating a lot of mp and decided to get the AG instead of a cache. I thought the game was too fluid and building one wouldn't stop him from decapping my fuel point.
The AG maybe wasn't the smartest decision, seeing as it has no AT capabilities and his rifles had flamers on them, but they ended up working out OK in the end.
Note: watch this with the open beta, not the official game.

Snipers, scout car, StuG

Here's an *average* example of how to defeat a US player

•  
  

  0

  VS

  Americans vs. Wehrmacht

  by: Gbpirate map: Faymonville Approach

  1

  -

:
My opponent went Rifle company to E8s, but neglected to get even a single light vehicle, which was quite stupid.

Oh I played this game in the beta yesterday. I was planning to test the .50cal, thats why no light vehicle. Anyways, after the 1 shot riflemensquad wipes (lel) from ur rifle nades + STUG-E, I had no manpower left to build more 50cals. But yeah wp, the pio flamer + STUG-E worked really well. Also think Airborne is a much better choice for USF on that map. But i like trying new stuff. The EZ8's did not performe as well as i hoped.

I also want a rematch so add me on steam.

Bars change may affect this adversely, but generally speaking, Gren spam (5x), PAK and tellers with a side order (say pick 2 units of the following) of Pgren/Sniper/Halftrack into a Tiger or Pumas call in's depending on doctrine choice will do a fine job vs most USF players. Otherwise Panther can work, although you'd want to drop a mid game unit (sniper/Pgren) to account for the additional tech cost.

Most USF players will go lieutenant vs Ostheer, so spending your 1st 100 munitions on tellers in key positions ain't the worst idea. Positioning as Ostheer is probably the most important thing, so learning good capping orders for each map is vital and staying compact.

Hope that helps

Seriously this Match up is just stupid. Any decent player (and Im talking ladder 500 and up, NOT average players...) will just mess you up early game.

Bryan , I know you are a good player, so Im inclined to follow your advice. But Im curious, you dont go for ANY support weapons? no HMGs or Mortars? Grens feel so damn weak vs US early game.

I pretty much wing it most games with a loose game plan as I like to try out a variety of units/strats. 99% of the time i'll incorporate support weapons into a build as combined arms is the reason I find Ostheer the most fun faction to play

But saying that, heavy gren builds, into t2 stuff and waiting for call in's, particularly the tiger, whilst not original at all and pretty boring to play, is effective imho. It is simple enough that you can concentrate on your capping orders and positioning+mining, the rest is down to your micro.

Against rilfes, I feel Grens are pretty equal these days in the early game if you play it right, it is more a map dependent thing then a unit balance, as some maps favour short engagements (Rifles), others long range (Grens). Still, stick to cover, get in the important buildings 1st and keep compact, you'll do okay.

As an aside, veto as many bad Ostheer maps as you can, Semoskiy winter for example is pretty hard as Ostheer.

Edit: I should add, that you don't have to take that build too literally. For example, on Crossing the Woods, 4 grens, 2 HMGS, 2 Paks and a halftrack into tiger is a pretty solid build. Each map has their own quirks, but 5 grens into some t2 stuff and Tiger would also work on Crossing the woods. It might be best to learn one build pretty well and then start incorporating new stuff, which is where the solid gren spam into t2 into tiger is a decent starting point if your having issues.

I pretty much wing it most games with a loose game plan as I like to try out a variety of units/strats. 99% of the time i'll incorporate support weapons into a build as combined arms is the reason I find Ostheer the most fun faction to play

But saying that, heavy gren builds, into t2 stuff and waiting for call in's, particularly the tiger, whilst not original at all and pretty boring to play, is effective imho. It is simple enough that you can concentrate on your capping orders and positioning+mining, the rest is down to your micro.

Against rilfes, I feel Grens are pretty equal these days in the early game if you play it right, it is more a map dependent thing then a unit balance, as some maps favour short engagements (Rifles), others long range (Grens). Still, stick to cover, get in the important buildings 1st and keep compact, you'll do okay.

As an aside, veto as many bad Ostheer maps as you can, Semoskiy winter for example is pretty hard as Ostheer.

Edit: I should add, that you don't have to take that build too literally. For example, on Crossing the Woods, 4 grens, 2 HMGS, 2 Paks and a halftrack into tiger is a pretty solid build. Each map has their own quirks, but 5 grens into some t2 stuff and Tiger would also work on Crossing the woods. It might be best to learn one build pretty well and then start incorporating new stuff, which is where the solid gren spam into t2 into tiger is a decent starting point if your having issues.

Thanks!

I usually Veto : Stalingrad, La Gleize and Kholodny Winter. Those are the worst for me, I somehow do good on Semoi Winter.

The only issue i find with a heavy gren build is that a well managed Sherman using HE rounds will mess you up big time and then the riflemen come storming in with bars and mop up.

The only issue i find with a heavy gren build is that a well managed Sherman using HE rounds will mess you up big time and then the riflemen come storming in with bars and mop up.

If you play it right, youll hurt him early game with 5x grens enough that he will be behind. And by the time Shermans show up you should have plenty to deal with it. At the minimum a Pak. That combined with a well placed faust should scare him away and give you time to tech.

The problem is not mid or late game US, its only early game. Its just so very critical in this matchup, the first 6 minutes will determine if youll have an ez game or not. If you can hold enough territory, not lose any units, inflict loses on him, and maybe take out the first light vehicle, then your good. If not. Then you are in deep shit.

OK - I understand there is of course a possibility of winning. The reality is, however, that you have to mess up a lot to lose as USF. Basically an USF player must be significantly worse than ostheer to loose. The biggest problem is their vehicles. They seem to be much stronger than they should.
1. They are too good at killing infantry compared to wehr vehicles (I feel that some shermans kill more models on average per shot than even a tiger - panzer 4 seems a funny vehicle in comparison).
2. The self repair is crazy - they get a few shots from AT and back up only to repair in seconds (they don't need extra 200 manpower worth unit that needs to be withdrawn to repair their vehicle, which makes it possible for them to repair and use the rear echelon troops they don't need to repair their vehicle to attack your AT, for example, or just cap).
3. You can use vehicles to cap, especially while repairing - they just get to some point, leave the vehicle and cap with its crew. If they are attacked they hop inside in no time and use the vehicle - simple and easy - and not fair (bear in mind that Soviet tanks, for example, need some time to change from capping mode to fighting mode.
To sum up, its too much - it shouldn't be like that - either option 1 (relatively strong armor) OR 2 (self repair) OR 3 (capping possibilty). NOT EVERYTHING IN ONE PACKAGE.

And a footnote to top it all - there's the bazooka. So when you spot them repairing with their crew they'll bazooka your scout car with a completely free bazooka (compare this to the effort an ostheer player needs to produce panzergrenadiers and give them 120 munitions shercks - which are not too effective and almost completely destroy their anty infantry capabilities).

OK - I understand there is of course a possibility of winning. The reality is, however, that you have to mess up a lot to lose as USF. Basically an USF player must be significantly worse than ostheer to loose. The biggest problem is their vehicles. They seem to be much stronger than they should.
1. They are too good at killing infantry compared to wehr vehicles (I feel that some shermans kill more models on average per shot than even a tiger - panzer 4 seems a funny vehicle in comparison).
2. The self repair is crazy - they get a few shots from AT and back up only to repair in seconds (they don't need extra 200 manpower worth unit that needs to be withdrawn to repair their vehicle, which makes it possible for them to repair and use the rear echelon troops they don't need to repair their vehicle to attack your AT, for example, or just cap).
3. You can use vehicles to cap, especially while repairing - they just get to some point, leave the vehicle and cap with its crew. If they are attacked they hop inside in no time and use the vehicle - simple and easy - and not fair (bear in mind that Soviet tanks, for example, need some time to change from capping mode to fighting mode.
To sum up, its too much - it shouldn't be like that - either option 1 (relatively strong armor) OR 2 (self repair) OR 3 (capping possibilty). NOT EVERYTHING IN ONE PACKAGE.

And a footnote to top it all - there's the bazooka. So when you spot them repairing with their crew they'll bazooka your scout car with a completely free bazooka (compare this to the effort an ostheer player needs to produce panzergrenadiers and give them 120 munitions shercks - which are not too effective and almost completely destroy their anty infantry capabilities).

Only the M20 crew gets a free bazooka, and its shit when facing Panzer IV.

True - what I wanted to emphasise is that there are a lot of little things that tip the balance too much. It's just far too many possibilities for one side, and unfortunately very few (and they need to be earned through a meticulous collection of resources) for the other. Lots of people compare armor vs armour etc. But this is not really what wins you the game. Very often such bazooka will make it imposibble for a damaged wehicle to flee.

I'm still waiting for posts from 2 anti-axis trolls... XD

Back on topic,

Wehr skill needed to defeat USF = skill USF needs to defeat OKW lategame

A lot of "I'm using the same build but I can't defeat them" is due to cap order / positioning / response time against enemy flanking maneuvers... and it's really hard to put them in words

My best advice is to watch twitch streams for Wehr 1v1s. Youtube propagandacast is great too.

Wehr skill needed to defeat USF = skill USF needs to defeat OKW lategame

True but sadly it seems they upgraded WSF and it is soo much more difficult to survive until you field the heavies

Wehr skill needed to defeat USF = skill USF needs to defeat OKW lategame

A lot of "I'm using the same build but I can't defeat them" is due to cap order / positioning / response time against enemy flanking maneuvers... and it's really hard to put them in words

My best advice is to watch twitch streams for Wehr 1v1s. Youtube propagandacast is great too.

On top of that rifles win grens at all ranges and the fact that wehr needs a huge amount of MP to get any T2 unit out compared to USF. It's a huge disadvantage.

Also the amount of munitions you need to get LMGs + medbunker and if you want to use grenades is just too much on some maps and sets you back even more. And on top of THAT ostheer can't really survive on any close combat maps against a similarly skilled USF opponent during the early game.

I sometimes think one of the problems is the static "nature" of ostheer. All their units must stand ground to be effective vs. highly movable allies. It's a huge problem. Once ostheer units start moving they can't use effectively most of the munitionexpensive stuff they bought. Average and better players will use it. Ostheer players are also more susceptible to arty strikes, grenades, mortars and so on. Conversly a mortar, for example, is only a threat for pretty bad USF plyers or only for their AT.

I find that in the end...the maps are the real issue. Was playing vs Thunder hun recently on Semoi Winter...and I feel we were very even in terms of skill..but even tho I was not losing any units...I still could not get any sort of proper map control and was slowly falling behind in terms of tech and VPs.

Very frustrating..Im already vetoing Stalingrad, Kholodny Winter and La Gleize. WTF am I supposed to do on these stupid maps. Oshteer NEED open area line of sight.

We NEED a close combat unit that doesnt cost tech and 360 mps...and pls dont say assault grens...they are horrible atm.

Agreed 100% - maybe grenadiers should be a bit more effective close range OR they should be more effective on the move?