Help vs USF ,,,this is just ridiculous

Ok srsly...this stupid match up is just ridiculous...

I cannot find a way to win....I cant get past the M8 or Ahalftrack part properly....

I usually open with 3 to 4 Grens, and an MG or MOrtar depending on the map..then I tech.



I tried both the AAgun and the scout car....but somehow I either get flanked on AAgun or the stupid scout car gets taken out in seconds.
The damned early game infy for US is ridiculous...they just bum rush right through....with minimum micro, even the MG42 is usless...

If I do survive this early attack...Im usually so behind on territory and ressources that the hill to climb to comeback is just too much.


WTF DO YOU GUYS DO???? ...any Wer player having constant success vs this faction??? Any tips or replays are appreciated.

Thanks

Heavy machine guns do quite a bit of damage to them so if you keep your mg42 paired with a gren or so while posturing a flank you can at least push back the flack halftrack/ M8. This buys you time to get out a pak or Panzer grenadiers with shrecks. If you have a 222, you have two viable gambles. You can either bait the light vehicle through great positioning or you can keep it in reserve only to pounce if you get a faust off and the Mg is shooting at it.

Vet one machine guns with AP rounds kill it off in 2 bursts so that is also another way to push it back.

Mines are another option, US players have to kill you in a reasonable amount of time so it forces them to be super aggressive with their light vehicles as well. This means generally the light vehicles will be traveling from map end to map end via roads, so Tellers are your friend.

In terms of area denial S mines also do tons of damage to light vehicles. You can use these to limit the flanking routes around key areas you are holding.

The goal here is to delay, good players make it hard to secure a kill on these but after you push it back the first time your pak or panzer grens limit the effectiveness of the light vehicle. Soon you should get out a StuG as it is your fastest hard counter that will secure the kill or render the M15 basically useless

Here is a link that demonstrates how powerful the MG42's armor piercing rounds work against the M15
http://www.coh2.org/topic/24602/don-t-mess-with-mg42

I like the teller mine idea...only thing is ...I am weary of munitions spending...as I want to keep them for Faust or LMGs. That said...I will have to try and setup mines...and also the MG42 piercing rounds are interesting...but I feel I need to predict where the ennemy vehicle will hit because of the setup time on these.

Then you mention Pgrens...now are they a better option than a Pak?? Should I get both?

Also...the Stug is a bit far off tech wise at that moment...and when I do get there I always feel P4 is better option.

P grens are great on a map like Semoisky where there are close spaces in the middle area and buildings to hide in. Paks are a better option on more open maps such as langreskaya. You may need both depending on what happens

Stugs are the most underrated tank in the game. Unless there are easy 8s about StuG is the most cost effective tank on the Ostheer side against USF. It also comes out significantly sooner costing around 1/4 less in fuel so its a much better choice when you are behind and have less map control when you pulled back to deal with the M15. It also has incredible AI power so it never at any point scales out of use.

The key thing to note is that early on you have to make choices of composition. If you want to deal with rifles and have the ability to deal with light vehicles you are better off going for MGs, maybe one lmg squad and a teller or what not. If you want LMGs out to deal with the rifles you have to quickly get T2 and probably not get healing right away in order to afford the critical munitions use through fausts or upgrading Pgrens.

Honestly the early game for Ostheer vs USF is about surviving. its better to live and skimp out on LMG upgrades early than get the infantry upper hand and die to early vehicles. My point is that you may need to change your mind set a bit and only get one or two lmgs. You can always purchase them for your grens later so there is no urgent need to get lmgs on every gren squad that spawns.

Keep your grens together at basically all times, get lmg upgrades on them asap (only other thing to spend ammo on should be the healing bunker and the Scoutcar upgun).

I would recommend getting 1 MG 3 Grens or 4 Grens. But that is up to you.

I also recommend going for T2 asap. Get a scoutcar out (it murders the M20, but care for the crew, it has a bazooka) and gain back mapcontrol. If he goes for a stuart, a pak is the way to go (maybe 2 if you dont feel comfortable microing it). You should probably get 1 or 2 PGs as well for more infantry fire power.

Still remember to keep your units together as much as possible (and make sure you focus fire on one squad at a time).

If you feel you need midgame tanks, you can go for a P4 (more than 1 is not worth it basically all of the time). Heavy Tiger call-in should seal the deal, as the US player has nothing that can compare to it.

Since you seem to struggle with the early game especially, I would recommend posting a replay to see where you are making mistakes. Mistakes in early game are often devestating.

Some general thigns to keep in mind:

Try to go for the side of the map that has more open areas. Those are better for MGs and long range fights (which your Grens excell at).

Normally you want to send all your units to the same side. If you have to retreat a pio early, you might wanna send it to the other side of the map to cap (it can 1v1 a RE squad if you get close without getting supressed).

Holding a fuel point is important, so your opponent cannot pump out a sherman or 2 early in the game.

Don't lose units!! It is better to full retreat sometimes, so you have enough units left to regain map control once your Scoutcar is out (upgun asap)

Try to get a hold of buildings. USF does not have as many good ways to clear a buliding as Soviets and the USF nade can be dodge with quick reactions.

Hope this helps a bit.

Thanks for the advice guys

Im thinking I will try the 222 again...and look at map for choosing Pgrens or Pak.

I like Igetusomedays advice on holding off LMGs...I think Im getting them maybe too fast.

This MU is just so frustrating early game...its sad..

I also struggle with this match-up in the early game. I can't really comment on your playstyle since you don't provide a replay, but I can share a couple of things that helped me improve.

One thing I now always try to do is build a Pak early. Given how strong the AA HT is, I always try to build a Pak before I need it. Spending the manpower is painful especially if you have been bleeding manpower from your Gren squads, but it pays off massively if you can kill a vehicle before it does any real damage.

Probably the main for me though was not really trying to win the game for the first 15 mins (roughly). What I mean by this is, don't be greedy and be very careful about where you choose to fight. If you can hold onto a muni point, fuel point and 1 VP in the early game, then that is enough. Harassment is of course worth it, but think very carefully before going on the attack. This applies even to those few early firefights between Grens and Rifles - ask yourself if the point you are fighting over is really worth it to you. If you can make it to the mid-game without constantly bleeding manpower then you will be in a good spot to beat the enemy through sheer versatility - you have Grens, PGrens, Paks, Mortar, HMG: the US player has only some of these things, and usually not as good as the Ostheer version.

Buying a 222 is usually a good idea since it really helps you out-shoot Rifles, and the fuel cost is very low. Keep it at max range to avoid Rifle nades. Gren LMGs are very important, but I would say Teller mines are a better investment if you see the LT and are on a map where there are obvious chokepoints. PGrens can be an alternative to LMGs to outshoot Rifles, if you have the MP and don't want to spend the Munis.

After this, getting out a P4 at a good time and using it cautiously makes the matchup start to swing in your favour. A Tiger doc secures you the late-game.

Yeah ...I do try not to get greedy..I understand that and usually I try to do exactly what you suggest...1 muni, 1 fuel, 1 VP...but STILL I get pushed off. And often cannot hold the damned fuel.

When this happens...I usually lose...because I cant compete with incoming shermans.

I will try 222...then PAK...ill try to stay back and hold off.

But srsly ...this is a ridiculous way to play. Its sad that this is the only way to beat off avg to good US players...it shouldn be this way IMO. Wer should be on equal terms throughout a match...exactly like Soviet vs Wer MU is.

Saying : Your goal is just to survive early game... do you guys see how dumb this all is

Honestly this kinda shit makes me miss Starcraft...at least you didnt have this ((race beeing better early then this one late bullshit)). Its just bad balancing. I say nerf the damn US vehicles/infantry early, buff them at later game. Recalibrate so the match up is interesting throughout...bah !! Im just mad!

Allies early, Axis late has always been the CoH balance. It was developed to be that way.

Keep your grens together at basically all times, get lmg upgrades on them asap (only other thing to spend ammo on should be the healing bunker and the Scoutcar upgun).

I would recommend getting 1 MG 3 Grens or 4 Grens. But that is up to you.

I also recommend going for T2 asap. Get a scoutcar out (it murders the M20, but care for the crew, it has a bazooka) and gain back mapcontrol. If he goes for a stuart, a pak is the way to go (maybe 2 if you dont feel comfortable microing it). You should probably get 1 or 2 PGs as well for more infantry fire power.

Still remember to keep your units together as much as possible (and make sure you focus fire on one squad at a time).

If you feel you need midgame tanks, you can go for a P4 (more than 1 is not worth it basically all of the time). Heavy Tiger call-in should seal the deal, as the US player has nothing that can compare to it.

Since you seem to struggle with the early game especially, I would recommend posting a replay to see where you are making mistakes. Mistakes in early game are often devestating.

Some general thigns to keep in mind:

Try to go for the side of the map that has more open areas. Those are better for MGs and long range fights (which your Grens excell at).

Normally you want to send all your units to the same side. If you have to retreat a pio early, you might wanna send it to the other side of the map to cap (it can 1v1 a RE squad if you get close without getting supressed).

Holding a fuel point is important, so your opponent cannot pump out a sherman or 2 early in the game.

Don't lose units!! It is better to full retreat sometimes, so you have enough units left to regain map control once your Scoutcar is out (upgun asap)

Try to get a hold of buildings. USF does not have as many good ways to clear a buliding as Soviets and the USF nade can be dodge with quick reactions.

Hope this helps a bit.

Once a Strategy Specialist, always a Strategy Specialist. Thanks for your support

How can you possibly win an even match-up if you spend 200+130(?)+320 mp on a unit you might not need or get any use out of? In my experience killing an M20 or AAht with AT-gun is pure luck or bad mistake from opponent. I think it's far safer to stay in T1 until you KNOW you need an AT-gun, maybe you can build T2 but don't get that AT-gun before you have anything for it to shoot at. If your opponent has a light vehicle and he knows you have an AT-gun he will simply let it be a harassing unit, leaving your PaK basically useless until late game.

Pak 40 or PGrens w/ Shrecks

/thread

680mp and 120 munitions to counter an M20. Sweet.


Ops sorry, didn't see you wrote "or".

@ OP

Please post the replay next time. It makes life easier for us all

Might also want to veto the worst Wehrmacht maps, as in stalingrad, semoskiy summer and la gleize.

try using more MGs in the early game, maybe 2. suppressed riflemen are ineffective riflemen and allow you to control more territory effectively. incindieary rounds will kill all usf light vehicles in 2 bursts (other than the stuart).
The AA HT will beat the 222 if the HT is standing still. Paks are the safest way to deal with the HT, while you can kill the m20 with any combination of: Faust, 222, panzershrek, incind rounds, pak

3 gren
1 mg
1 more gren
1 more mg

I always use this to gain map control. Allows me to suppress them and control at least half the map which what you want to do as Ostheer.
Get a pak around 7-8 mins to prepare for the AAHT or the utility car.

if youre against a soviet player, you can just look at their base in the fog of war and determine if you need a pak or not.

if youre against a soviet player, you can just look at their base in the fog of war and determine if you need a pak or not.

Not the topic.

All you need is riflemen , that is what relic had in mind when developing the US