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russian armor

IS2 vs Infantry

24 Sep 2014, 08:13 AM
#21
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

IS-2 should have lease rear armor it is almost invincible for Ost tier 3


Yes this is a problem, the IS2 has so much armor it makes Ost t3 obsolete. And at current teching/cost the panther is not an affordable option. It used to be that stug could counter it but not much anymore.
24 Sep 2014, 08:21 AM
#22
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 07:53 AMAbdul



The numbers in red explain why IS2 isn't the best against infantry. Shots can miss by 5.7m which is beyond its far range area of effect (3.0). Also the reload is about mid to slow.


lol at is2 frontal armor
24 Sep 2014, 08:22 AM
#23
avatar of Cruzz

Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41

Good thing soviet T3 and T4 are already obsolete before Tigers even show up so the fact that the Tiger rear armor durability is higher compared to T34 damage output than IS2 rear armor is compared to PIV doesn't matter.



lol at is2 frontal armor


lol at superior german AT.

Give soviets and USF PaKs, Schreks and Fausts and your Tigers can have IS2 armor any day of the week, even without getting the craptastic IS2 gun in exchange.
24 Sep 2014, 08:25 AM
#24
avatar of butterfingers158

Posts: 239



lol at is2 frontal armor


Dat 425 frontal King Tiger and 525 frontal Jagdtiger
24 Sep 2014, 08:37 AM
#25
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

The reload timer, and armor, are imo the two asymmetric counterweights here.

Cruzzs point about t3 efficacy on both sides vs these super tanks is valid, though a bit overstated. IS2 needs better armor to survive vs Ost T3 (and T4, though thats moot, because Panther is crap), just as Tiger needs less vs Sov T3 (and T4, though that too is moot, because SU85 is a bit crap, and is overstepped by T34/85s).

Im surprised to see IS2 has better speed/accelerstion stats, but Im ok with that considering Blitz.

I dont think the scatter differential is a substantial issue.

What are the AoE stats?
24 Sep 2014, 08:43 AM
#26
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 07:53 AMAbdul



The numbers in red explain why IS2 isn't the best against infantry. Shots can miss by 5.7m which is beyond its far range area of effect (3.0). Also the reload is about mid to slow.


And the other numbers show just how good is now over Tiger, for the same price. These 2 tanks were never balanced and they won't ever be. One patch, Tiger stronger. Next, IS2 stronger. And so on. For how shitty is Ostheer currently they could though at least give Tiger some advantage.
24 Sep 2014, 08:45 AM
#27
avatar of butterfingers158

Posts: 239

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 08:43 AMJohnnyB
they could though at least give Tiger some advantage.


You mean like considerably lower reload and scatter thus meaning it does more DPS to both tanks and infantry?
24 Sep 2014, 08:52 AM
#28
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752



You mean like considerably lower reload and scatter thus meaning it does more DPS to both tanks and infantry?


Sov infantry squads are larger, necessitating that.
As to vs tanks, the IS2s armor answers that.
24 Sep 2014, 08:54 AM
#29
avatar of Winterfeld

Posts: 249

You must be crazy


24 Sep 2014, 08:58 AM
#30
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

Its also firing at infantry units which generally have less models though.


With the introduction of WFA this isn't really the case anymore. It used to be easier to balance these things with Soviets 6-men squads vs Ostheer 4-men squads. But now, a Tiger vs USF will be shooting at 5-4 men squads with 4-men support weapons. Compared to IS-2 vs OKW who will also be shooting at 5-4 men squads with 4-men support weapons. The tiger comes out on top.
24 Sep 2014, 08:58 AM
#31
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 08:22 AMCruzz
Good thing soviet T3 and T4 are already obsolete before Tigers even show up so the fact that the Tiger rear armor durability is higher compared to T34 damage output than IS2 rear armor is compared to PIV doesn't matter.


No, 2 t34 can be a threat to a tiger, but, 2 p4 hardly can threaten an is2. Both t34 and p4 have the same penetration values but the is2 has more armor values (especially front).

The key difference between the 2 armies in this comparison is the AT guns. The pak reloads so fast compared to the zis, but only has 10 more penetration at any range. That is why it struggles against the is2 high front armor.
24 Sep 2014, 09:00 AM
#32
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896



With the introduction of WFA this isn't really the case anymore. It used to be easier to balance these things with Soviets 6-men squads vs Ostheer 4-men squads. But now, a Tiger vs USF will be shooting at 5-4 men squads with 4-men support weapons. Compared to IS-2 vs OKW who will also be shooting at 5-4 men squads with 4-men support weapons. The tiger comes out on top.


This is especially a problem with the USF AT gun. The tiger can decrew it so fast.
24 Sep 2014, 09:02 AM
#33
avatar of Hitman5

Posts: 467

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 08:43 AMJohnnyB


And the other numbers show just how good is now over Tiger, for the same price. These 2 tanks were never balanced and they won't ever be. One patch, Tiger stronger. Next, IS2 stronger. And so on. For how shitty is Ostheer currently they could though at least give Tiger some advantage.


The biggest slap in the face is that they cost THE SAME. I wouldn't have nearly as much problem if it cost say 700MP & 250 Fuel.
24 Sep 2014, 09:14 AM
#34
avatar of Cruzz

Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 08:58 AMAbdul


No, 2 t34 can be a threat to a tiger, but, 2 p4 hardly can threaten an is2. Both t34 and p4 have the same penetration values but the is2 has more armor values (especially front).

The key difference between the 2 armies in this comparison is the AT guns. The pak reloads so fast compared to the zis, but only has 10 more penetration at any range. That is why it struggles against the is2 high front armor.


Time to kill:

PaK40 vs IS2: (1040/160) / (190/375) = 12.82 * 3.9625 s/r = 50.8 secs
ZiS3 vs Tiger: (1040/160) / (180/300) = 10.8 * 5.8 s/r = 62.64 secs

far:
PIV vs IS2 (1040/160) / (100/375) = 24.4 *5.75 s/r = 140.3 secs
T34 vs Tiger (1040/160) / (80/300) = 24.375 *6.75 s/r = 164.5 secs

near:
PIV vs IS2 (1040/160) / (120/375) = 20.3 *5.75 s/r = 116.7 secs
T34 vs Tiger (1040/160) / (120/300) = 16.25 *6.75 s/r = 109.7 secs

Rear armor near:
PIV vs IS2 (1040/160) / (120/205) *5.75 = 63.8 secs
T34 vs Tiger (1040/160) / (120/180) *6.75 = 65.1 secs

In actual gameplay the T34s will do worse than this because they have worse survivability than the PIV (even if the only thing in the area is the Tiger/IS2, because the Tiger has higher DPS against mediums). Plus no smoke or blitz.
24 Sep 2014, 09:44 AM
#35
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 952 | Subs: 1

For what it's worth, though, each P4 costs 25% more fuel than each T3476, and the vet armor bonus of the P4 is useless vs the IS2 while the rate -of-fire bonuses the '76 gets remains relevant vs the Tiger.
24 Sep 2014, 09:59 AM
#36
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

First shot is not affected by reload.

Have you deducted that from your figures?
24 Sep 2014, 10:05 AM
#37
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 09:14 AMCruzz


Time to kill:

PaK40 vs IS2: (1040/160) / (190/375) = 12.82 * 3.9625 s/r = 50.8 secs
ZiS3 vs Tiger: (1040/160) / (180/300) = 10.8 * 5.8 s/r = 62.64 secs


I am looking at the numbers and plan to do an in game test, but I think the number of shots should be rounded because no tank dies to (1040/160) = 6.5 pak or tank shots. This should be rounded to 7 and that will increase the time for all of those calculations.
24 Sep 2014, 10:09 AM
#38
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

It doesn't need, nor should be, rounded.

The 6.5 shots is an overall average.
24 Sep 2014, 10:09 AM
#39
avatar of Chernov

Posts: 70

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2014, 08:22 AMCruzz
Good thing soviet T3 and T4 are already obsolete before Tigers even show up so the fact that the Tiger rear armor durability is higher compared to T34 damage output than IS2 rear armor is compared to PIV doesn't matter.



lol at superior german AT.

Give soviets and USF PaKs, Schreks and Fausts and your Tigers can have IS2 armor any day of the week, even without getting the craptastic IS2 gun in exchange.


+1

Axis have superior AT and armor.

If you want to nerf allies heavies then please buff other AT capabilities.

24 Sep 2014, 10:17 AM
#40
avatar of Cruzz

Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41

First shot is not affected by reload.

Have you deducted that from your figures?


Obviously not, it's a purely theoretical value just to show the relative damage differences. You could just deduct one reload time from all the numbers if you want that.


I am looking at the numbers and plan to do an in game test, but I think the number of shots should be rounded because no tank dies to (1040/160) = 6.5 pak or tank shots. This should be rounded to 7 and that will increase the time for all of those calculations.


If you want to get slightly closer to the actual performance ingame, yes. I didn't bother considering any of this because it would just look silly to round up to 7 rounds but then still have like 10.8 rounds based on the penetration check. If you want to be even fancier you'd do a probability distribution of how likely you are to kill with x shots, which would probably make the IS2 look a bit stronger due to it being the more likely one to continue to deflect shots way past when you'd "expect" it to die.
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