Thoughts on the stale 2v2 meta v 2.0 (Okws big tanks)

In february Relic hinted that they were working on buffing the soviet tanks so that they could compete with Osts Tigers, Panthers and the Elefant. That resulted in "the stale meta", described here: http://www.coh2.org/topic/17136/thoughts-on-the-stale-2v2-meta-isu-v-ele
The stale meta for the Ost-players meant you had to go Elefant or the Isu would crush everything you had. For the Soviet-players it meant the only way to compete with Osts medium and heavytanks was the Isu.

In some sense relic did not learn from earlier mistakes when they introduced Wfa. The OKW-tanks are determining the meta in 2v2 and up. It seems we have to help them out. So, how should relic balance the tanks that are a problem without making them as useless as the elefant? The tanks that I have in mind is Jagdtiger, Kingtiger, Isu-152 and the Elefant. If you feel any other tanks are a problem, plz discuss. If you dont think any of these tanks are a problem, motivate.

In that thread you have posted there are many fine examples of things that could be done to fix the meta.

*If* core armor units were addressed to ensure they are filling their role *then* I would propose limiting all call in armor to 1, 2, and 3 max a game. This would encourage the player to actually tech while still getting a very good benefit from the call in armor. It would also encourage unit preservation as the player would have to know that when they lose their SuperTankElite^2 that there would only be a limited number of replacements.

In february Relic hinted that they were working on buffing the soviet tanks so that they could compete with Osts Tigers, Panthers and the Elefant. That resulted in "the stale meta", described here: http://www.coh2.org/topic/17136/thoughts-on-the-stale-2v2-meta-isu-v-ele
The stale meta for the Ost-players meant you had to go Elefant or the Isu would crush everything you had. For the Soviet-players it meant the only way to compete with Osts medium and heavytanks was the Isu.

In some sense relic did not learn from earlier mistakes when they introduced Wfa. The OKW-tanks are determining the meta in 2v2 and up. It seems we have to help them out. So, how should relic balance the tanks that are a problem without making them as useless as the elefant? The tanks that I have in mind is Jagdtiger, Kingtiger, Isu-152 and the Elefant. If you feel any other tanks are a problem, plz discuss. If you dont think any of these tanks are a problem, motivate.

Uhm...what is everyone on?
Are you saying that it's not fun to play?
Are you saying that it's not balanced?

I haven't used an elefant/pak43 against an ISU in so long.

I've been defeated by IS2s.
I've been defeated by T34/85s.
I've been defeated by an ISU152
I've won vs an IS2
I've won vs a T34/85 combo
I've won vs an ISU152 without elefant.

I feel like many of these posts aren't for actual game balance but merely to try and get internet fame (as stupid and childish as it sounds). It's easy to gain approval by your peers when you appeal to the masses. Your masses, in this sense, being the ones that do nothing but cry OP every time they lose a bad game

Unshavenbackman - I would like to say that you are famous to me. Famous for wanting to be famous, kind of like Paris Hilton.3

That being said, the only thing I would agree on when it comes to medium/heavy tank is tying Call in to certain tiers...Aside from that, its fine.

Sorry for the long post but here are my thoughts:
When Coh2 launched medium tanks were easy to get with cheap teching, heavy tanks were overpriced and atguns were overpriced and inaccurate.
All these units were changed to what they are now:
Double Atguns murder medium tanks and stalling for heavies is easier due to more expensive teching while CP's stayed mostly the same.
This leads to a situation where Heavy tanks are the best countered by other heavy tanks. Medium tanks need to charge in to get the rear armour but there are always mines, button, fausts and atguns for support. Heavy tanks can go front to front shrugging of atgun shots easier.
The overall call-in system is under review so we will await the changes to it. It would making stalling for them harder. 4-5 minutes later should be good. But if the enemy get's an ISU it can still be a gamebreaker.
Now what is a good way to attack tanks and atguns without Heavy tanks; heavy artillery. Priests and Stukazufuss do a good job but the howitzers for the vcoh2 factions are too expensive for their durability (stuka strike 1 shot, light howie strike etc.)

My opinion on the 4 tanks you listed:
-King Tiger. I think this unit is fine. It regularly kills 4 units per shot but it is also slow as hell and turret rotation is terrible. A slight nerf in the high rear armour (225) could work but not necessary.
-Elefant. 70 range killed this thing. High front armour protects against 60 range atguns but it's too vulnerable to flanks with 70 range. A hull down mode that gives it +10 to 20 range might be something
-Jagdtiger.This unit design is too polarizing; gets stunned for no reason but is a moving pak43 with 5 more range. Don't know exactly how to rework it but should be cheaper and less strong. Should stay unique in shooting through buildings to differentiate from elefant
-ISU152. Good against everything. Cruzzi's suggestion for a certain set up time would be perfect. It would make flanking isus easier instead of slowing down for a sec and instantly getting shot by the isu. Alternatively the He/Ap split could work but the difference should be bigger than the sherman currently has.

Another thing, the map plays a role; ISU on minsk, JagdTiger on trois pont, King Tiger on semoisky are all super hard to beat. I feel this is just a matter of using your vetoes well.

TLDR; Teamgames are much more fun without ISU/JT, but it is a lot easier to win with heavy tanks

From what I can tell as an inexperienced 2v2 player, 2v2 boils down to this:

Allies: Protect ISU so it wins the infantry war

Axis: Kill ISU so your superior close-combat tanks/infantry/support weapons win the infantry war

And because the ISU is near impossible to kill if it's covered by mines/the other player, it comes down to jagdtiger vs ISU just like the good old elefant vs ISU. Basically these two units appear to operate out of the conventional counter system of antitank infantry and antitank guns, flanking with smaller tanks, mining to prevent aggression (b/c you can sit back in one spot and not move while still exerting presence with the ISU/Jagd), because of extreme range and survivability.

So you need the Jagd to kill the ISU, and you need the ISU to win the game for the Allies since they cannot go toe to toe with axis units (barring cases where double soviets pick good lategame doctrines while double ostheer pick fringe doctrines without Tigers).

King Tiger is part of the root of the problem, being inordinately difficult for the allies to kill OR outdamage without ISU (or OP47)... which drives the allies to using the ISU in the first place, leading to the jagdtiger. the elefant isn't really relevant, mainly because the jagdtiger is so good, and also because the range nerf hit it as a singlepurpose unit harder than it did the ISU.

in a way, you could say something similar about the early game:

Allies: Protect snipers so they win the infantry war

Axis: Kill snipers so your superior infantry/support weapons win the infantry war

but of course light vehicles, teching, and other factors break this clean formula so it isn't as clear-cut as the ISU/Jagd meta.


So anyway, that's just my understanding of 2v2 currently, whether it be right or wrong.

ISUs vs Jagds, Snipers vs Everything

I'll agree on the sniper part, especially with allied machineguns in a worse state than ever right now, soviet snipers are really the one thing holding the allied early game together. Every remotely competitive 2vs2 game you see is going to involve snipers from the soviets by the looks of it right now.

I tend to feel that while Jagd is the easy, no thought required counter to ISU, axis are in no way forced to go for it to counter the ISU, while allies pretty much are forced to go for ISU as it is the only vehicle they get that will regularly oneshot wipe axis lolsoldaten in the lategame. As soon as your tigers or panthers have blitz, there is little allies can do to stop them from hunting down the ISUs now that Button only tickles, and mines tend to get wiped away as collateral damage from the constant stuka and mortar barrages from the superior axis artillery options.

Though the sheer OPness of the P47 does potentially open some doors for medium usage, I very much doubt that is going to last as the ability is clearly a total outlier in potential munition efficiency.

As an avid soviet player I'm forced to get an ISU-152. My infantry cannot compete with German infantry, even when massed. My tanks are all very inferior to German armour. My AT gun's are easily flanked, hit with a stuka, or overrun by the superior German infantry.

So, the solution is to use an ISU-152 to beat up your infantry, make you use your medium tanks like the soviets are forced to do, and laugh hysterically when people CONTINUE TO TRY AND USE INFANTRY AND MEDIUM TANKS RUNNING DIRECTLY AT IT.