Stormpioneers post patch

Fighting SP as Soviets feel a little better, Prepatch they could walk right up to you and wipe your squad. However, even with the durability changes to SP, and closerange DPS reduction, SPs dont seem to rape conscripts every single time anymore. They mgiht even lose a unit now when closing it. Still deadly when flanking, but allows a little more room for some counterplay

Can you please stop posting stupid images and comments that rather belong into the pm section?

Off-topic

Build an AT gun. Each dot on its range indicator is 2 range.

Does that mean that every man is like 2 "range" tall?

I think range is counted in meters.

Overall I think SP change was a good one.

Surely I'm not the only one who sees that it is 100% WRONG that the Sturmpioneer which is a 320 mp unit cannot reach maximum damage outside of punching distance right?

Added a received accuracy modifier of 0.87
Near range distance from 8 to 3
Mid range distance from 16 to 15
Far mid distance from 35 to 28


While meanwhile the American Assault Engineer squad reaches its maximum potential at 10!!

Assault Engineer M3

Range distance near from 8 to 10
Range distance mid from 14 to 18
Moving accuracy from 0.6 to 0.75
Rate of fire near modifier from 0.7777 to 1
Rate of fire far modifier from 1 to 0.7777



How in the hell does it make sense that the M3 Submachine Gun, a very cheap flimsy substitute for the M1A1-Thompson, outranges the MP-44/STG-44 Assault Rifle!?

I'll repeat STG-44 = 3 range for max damage, and the M3 = 10 range for max damage.

and they get this enormous advantage all for the price of a doctrine and 280mp?!


Nobody thinks this is just downright wrong?

How in the hell does it make sense that the M3 Submachine Gun, a very cheap flimsy substitute for the M1A1-Thompson, outranges the MP-44/STG-44 Assault Rifle!?

I'll repeat STG-44 = 3 range for max damage, and the M3 = 10 range for max damage.

and they get this enormous advantage all for the price of a doctrine and 280mp?!


Nobody thinks this is just downright wrong?

Looking at figures is quite insane. Sturmpios need to be buffed a little vs actual status or make this squad 5 men and give them Mp40s. That would be more sensible, but it's totally stupid that the best assault rifle in WW2 performs worst than M3.
Ok, understand that they want to tone down the Sturmpios, but it was a little to much.

Looking at figures is quite insane. Sturmpios need to be buffed a little vs actual status or make this squad 5 men and give them Mp40s. That would be more sensible, but it's totally stupid that the best assault rifle in WW2 performs worst than M3.
Ok, understand that they want to tone down the Sturmpios, but it was a little to much.

It would be easier to just revert the change so they could be competitive again. Not only did this change devastate the entire utility of the Sturmpioneer, it has practically annihilated the entire Sturmpioneer + Volksgrenadier synergy/dynamic. Where Volksgrenadiers were cheap meat shields taking attention and damage while Sturmpioneers moved into mid/close range to deal damage and flank.

Hell even Soviet Shocktroopers have these values as of June 30th 2014! (This date being the last time they were officially tweaked.)

PPSH

Profile change from 8 / 12 / 30 to 10 / 16 / 30


Meaning that Effectively Shocktroopers have 10 range with the PPSh, outranging the STG-44 for max damage!

It would be easier to just revert the change so they could be competitive again. Not only did this change devastate the entire utility of the Sturmpioneer, it has practically annihilated the entire Sturmpioneer + Volksgrenadier synergy/dynamic. Where Volksgrenadiers were cheap meat shields taking attention and damage while Sturmpioneers moved into mid/close range to deal damage and flank.

Hell even Soviet Shocktroopers have these values as of June 30th 2014! (This date being the last time they were officially tweaked.)

PPSH

Profile change from 8 / 12 / 30 to 10 / 16 / 30


Meaning that Effectively Shocktroopers have 10 range with the PPSh, outranging the STG-44 for max damage!

Yeap, for their price and reinforce cost/speed they are bad now. It was great to use them with kubel and volks, with some micro could stop a 4 rifles with ease, if i had grenade on volks.
Well it is weird that m3 is so much better than assault rifle now, they could give to USF engines a thompsons, that will maybe be little weird in design that USF engies have thompsons, still better than the m3 outperform a stg44.

Surely I'm not the only one who sees that it is 100% WRONG that the Sturmpioneer which is a 320 mp unit cannot reach maximum damage outside of punching distance right?

Added a received accuracy modifier of 0.87
Near range distance from 8 to 3
Mid range distance from 16 to 15
Far mid distance from 35 to 28


While meanwhile the American Assault Engineer squad reaches its maximum potential at 10!!

Assault Engineer M3

Range distance near from 8 to 10
Range distance mid from 14 to 18
Moving accuracy from 0.6 to 0.75
Rate of fire near modifier from 0.7777 to 1
Rate of fire far modifier from 1 to 0.7777



How in the hell does it make sense that the M3 Submachine Gun, a very cheap flimsy substitute for the M1A1-Thompson, outranges the MP-44/STG-44 Assault Rifle!?

I'll repeat STG-44 = 3 range for max damage, and the M3 = 10 range for max damage.

and they get this enormous advantage all for the price of a doctrine and 280mp?!


Nobody thinks this is just downright wrong?

Sturmpioneer's optimal range is mid range also they need to stand still. From what you're being saying you're using them wrong. DPS adjustment was needed so it's a good thing. I know you can't wreck early game units anymore but hey, this game supposed to be equally balanced for all the factions so tough luck. From my experience they're not as bad as you're saying.

Also Assault Engineers are more like Fallschirmjäger rather than Sturmpioneers so your comparison is a bit off target.

Just to be clear, the Sturmpioneer along with every other infantry unit did not see a value change. They are worth the same, their stats were just optimized to better reflect their intended functionality. i.e. Sturmpioneers lost damage for durability. The idea is that when they close into an enemy unit, they receive less damage, therefore increasing the likelihood of having a whole squad over a partial squad. Their short-mid range damage output is already high enough in most cases that the reduction in damage that was applied will not result in the squad losing the given engagement.

So Assault Engineers haven't seen any value change?

The problem is that sturmpioneers still lose entities when closing in, the trick was to close them in while enemies are busy dealing with e.g. Volksgrenadiers. You can could close them in unharmed or with minimal damage and then do a massive amount of damage due their glass cannon status.
This was enhancing combined arms and proper unit positioning.
The same way was used to clear out buildings with maxims, bait with volks, clear with SturmPios.
Now it takes more time to clear buildings and it leaves the enemy rather unpunished when his flanks were open.

It might doesn't make any sense to use them for close ins anymore at all. Maybe is just better to keep them in a huge blob together with volks on mid range. So it's rifle blob against okw blob....

I see you wanted to change them in a way that they become less RNG dependant and deliver a more constant performance, but that doesn't harmony with the high rish / high reward design of the OKW faction and feels therefore like dumbing down the whole faction.
Now you have a mediocre unit that will reward you less for risks.

Does that mean that every man is like 2 "range" tall?

I think range is counted in meters.

I don't know which scale the range is measured with in game, but distance between 2 dots on AT gun range finder equals pretty much 2 range in game.

*shortened*

Your understanding of the mechanics is flawed. The range values are just one kog in the whole machine.

Once again with a bit more explanation:
There are 5 ranges in the game
[Min, near, mid, far, max]

These stats set where the corresponding range is. Min and max range should be self explanatory. The other three are far more important. Almost every value that determines the DPS of a weapon has three values or modifiers, one for each of those ranges (near, mid, far). That means you can calculate 3 DPS values for them. The values for the ranges near/mid/far then determine where those values are. Between the min and near distance it always uses near and between far and max it always uses far. Besides that it linearly interpolates between near and mid for intermediate points and between mid and far.

A bit abstract that means you have 3 values to create the graph, at the end it keeps the value till it reaches the borders defined by min and max.
For a more graphical explanation:
| | range: {
| | | distance: {
| | | | far: D;
| | | | mid: C;
| | | | near: B;
| | | };
| | | max: E;
| | | min: A;
| | };



So while the "near" value is important for the fact where a weapon deals (usually) the maximum of it's damage, it's far from the only important value. SMGs for example tend to have low DPS at the "mid" range and a "mid" range that is somewhere between and 15 and 20, which means their damage starts to drop off a lot after the near range. Assault Rifle profiles on the other hand still tend to have a rather high mid range DPS. This causes their damage to drop slower. For an example look at my earlier posted linked at the end of this one.
This actually tries to accurately model the actual weapons performance. While an Assault Rifle is a good close range weapon, it's performance is not as good as a dedicated close range weapon. It's a weapon that is good to use at all ranges, but excels at none.
This has a major impact in the game due to the fact that few weapons have "good" mid range DPS, so relative to other weapons an Assault rifle usually deals most damage at mid range. In an earlier post I made an image to compare the Sturmpioneers to other units (http://www.coh2.org/topic/23832/stormpioneers-post-patch/post/213620) and Tensai actually made a comparison tool for his page (http://www.coh2-stats.com/compare).

In the picture comparing the DPS of the squads you can see a few things:
Conscripts (Bolt Action Rifle) profits little from getting closer. Relative to most other weapon profiles, this is best at long range.
Assault Engineers (SMG profile) damage drops off a lot after a certain range. Relative to most other weapon profiles this is best at short range.
Sturmpioneers / PGrens (Assault Rifle profile) damage drops off slowly over the range, but is still a lot higher up close than long range. Relative to most other weapon profiles this is best at mid range (outperforms dedicated short and long range weapons there).
Riflemen (Carbine profile) profit somewhere in the middle between an Assault Rifle and Bolt Action Rifle. This means it's hard to judge their best engagement range vs other units. Against bolts getting closer is better, against SMG usually the mid range is best and against Assault Rifles long range.

Thanks @MilkaCow, this last post finally lets me understand how the damage in ranges inbetween those "cornerstones" is calculated. Very helpful.