Better OKW than Ostheer Panther a myth?
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But is it really? If we take into consideration the fuel penalty for OKW (trading munition for fuel doesn't equalize this gap completely and you also lose half your munition, so you pay heavily), it would seem questionable enough to me already to have to pay the same price for a (already before underwhelming) Panther that has only slightly better accuracy (and better accuracy means here to be on par with the least accurate allied tanks). But apparently for some players this was already justification enough to claim it is "fine".
It has notably better accuracy than allied tanks on the move, especially with veterancy which ends up removing its movement penalties completely, completely unique among all vehicles in the game.
While the average of the actual reload speed stat is the same, there seems to be also an additional "wind down" time involved, that according to this spreadsheet (see AC/AD column) is effectively increasing the reload time by another second every shot. This means that it has even lower DPS than the already rather low on DPS Ostheer Panther and has the lowest firing rate of any tank apart from the Elefant, Jagdtiger, KV-2 and ISU-152 (who all have higher weapon damage in return). Even tanks like the Bulldozer Sherman shoot faster!
Spreadsheet is wrong, ostheer panther gun has the same 1 second wind down as the OKW one.
If you ask me, that makes the OKW Panther actually even worse than the Ostheer Panther besides the fuel Penalty for OKW. The only significant redeeming factor that remains for me are the veterancy 4+5 levels, but that is not enough justification for me for this performance, as this is really not something you can count on achieving in a game against equally skilled players.
Better MGs, higher base accuracy with infinitely better moving accuracy, higher veterancy bonuses with more veterancy levels, stronger blitzkrieg, much less tech costs. While being supported by the strongest anti-inf infantry in the game so you honestly need no other vehicles, you can just rush for the Panthers with ease as OKW.
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Can you tell me if the stats on the coh2-stats.com site are correct? I would like to look at the actual differences between the tanks then.
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Can you tell me if the stats on the coh2-stats.com site are correct? I would like to look at the actual differences between the tanks then.
Yes, the numerical values there should be correct as they're just directly copied from the game files instead of manually inserted like in the spreadsheet. Looking up correct guns for upgrades and veterancy changes is a bit frustrating as the site doesn't correctly link those, especially as (due to Relic's poor naming scheme rather than any fault of the site maintainer) the site has a lot of "garbage" data because many things are incorrectly marked as mp stats. And on the flip side some things used in mp are not marked as such so have to be manually added so some things might still be missing from the site.
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As I can see on first look what you said about the differences between the two Panthers seems correct, so I guess this thread becomes pointless (unless the differences and their justification want to be discussed further by some). For general Panther discussion I guess we have some other threads already.
What seems to be the case though is that the reload speed is actually 7,5 seconds and not 6,5 seconds for both Panthers as I have thought in the past.
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Expensive overpriced, get penatrated by almost anything bigger than 45mm baby ATG, extreme suck DPS.
There is no reason why not to get Puma/JPIV with rakenten or StuG III with Pak instead of this overnerfed panzer.
And it was the best medium tank in the world, they said.
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This pride of the Vaterland just sucks.
Expensive overpriced, get penatrated by almost anything bigger than 45mm baby ATG, extreme suck DPS.
There is no reason why not to get Puma/JPIV with rakenten or StuG III with Pak instead of this overnerfed panzer.
Its just a glorified meatshield,can't actually kill anything with its DPS,reload and accuracy.Has to run away from AT guns too.And with that price-its a certified game loser.Meanwhile t-85s and e8s chilling at 130 and 135 fuel and happily 2 shotting squads and at guns.Its better described as joke of the vaterland.
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And it was the best medium tank in the world, they said.
I am not sure who told this, since it's very far from truth.
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I am not sure who told this, since it's very far from truth.
Yeah historically the panther was a pretty average tank design,i'm sure.
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T-34 at 100 fuel..pz 4 125 fuel.Slight difference in performance.
T-85 at 130 fuel and e8 at 135 fuel -major difference in performance.
Now compare panther at 175 fuel and no AI even ignoring teching-performance diff?
Nuff said.
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Permanently Bannedno AI? coaxial ,hul and mouted mg are good against infentri
No it actually isn't. It's nothing compared to T 34 AI capability.
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No it actually isn't. It's nothing compared to T 34 AI capability.
Well it isn't an AI tank.
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No it actually isn't. It's nothing compared to T 34 AI capability.
Please, give me your T-34s. Mine usually spend about five shells dialing in on the Pioneer standing five meters in front of the tank, scratching his ass.
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Spreadsheet is wrong, ostheer panther gun has the same 1 second wind down as the OKW one.
Whoever put in the value for wind_down for the ostheer panther didn't put it in correctly, I didn't put the values in on the new spreadsheet (I did for the old one).
However, the Ostheer panther still has a faster reload.
OKW panther:
| | reload: {
| | | duration: {
| | | | max: 6.4f;
| | | | min: 6.1f;
| | | };
Ostheer panther:
| | reload: {
| | | duration: {
| | | | max: 6.7f;
| | | | min: 5.8f;
| | | };
The difference is minimal, in practice the Ostheer and OKW panthers have the same close DPS, while the ost panther has greater long range DPS. I agree on the other points about the OKW panther being superior.
I don't see any difference between the OKW Panther and the Ostheer Panther, except that the OKW Panther cost more on fuel because of the low fuel income OKW has and it can get to vet 5 which is probably a reasonable price compared to the Ostheer Panther.
In their current implementations, they have a massive accuracy difference.
OST:
| | accuracy: {
| | | far: 0.025f;
| | | mid: 0.0375f;
| | | near: 0.05f;
OKW:
| | accuracy: {
| | | far: 0.035f;
| | | mid: 0.045f;
| | | near: 0.055f;
In practice, vs a sherman-sized target (23 size) their chance to hit are:
OST:
Far: 57.5%
Mid: 86.25%
Near: 100%
OKW:
Far: 80.5%
Mid: 100%
Near: 100%
Also, the OKW panther has a .65 moving accuracy modifer vs OST panther .5 moving accuracy, so the OKW panther pulls ahead more significantly while moving.
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