My thoughts & ideas on Conscripts

Oz and Cannonade go into every thread about improving Soviet gameplay and take a big shit on it. They were also shitting up the SU-76 / T70 thread. When every other poster was in relative agreement, they stamped their feet with impotent rage.

I would take their posts here with a pound of salt.

AD.1. I don't get the logic behind this sorry. I know you need to research Molotov and AT nade but to be able to use Rifle nade and Panzerfaust you need to research Battle fase 1 as well so no, these are not coming free. It's about timing rather then anything else.

Confirmed Oz has no idea what he's talking about

I know you need to research Molotov and AT nade but to be able to use Rifle nade and Panzerfaust you need to research Battle fase 1 as well so no, these are not coming free. It's about timing rather then anything else.

As if you could skip BP1 if you didn't want riflenades and Fausts...

They are free. period.

It's not that Soviet is not starting with higher amount of fuel to offset this.

How about you type my nickname into ladder and see for yourself what's my favourite game mode and faction before claiming that I don't know what I'm talking about regarding Soviets. Go a head, i dare you.

AD.1. I don't get the logic behind this sorry. I know you need to research Molotov and AT nade but to be able to use Rifle nade and Panzerfaust you need to research Battle fase 1 as well so no, these are not coming free. It's about timing rather then anything else.

AD.2. PPSH Conscripts are countering LMG Grens in close range.

AD.3. DK-28 Guards are equal to LMG Grens.

we will argue about this when conscripts get molotovs free with t1/t2 and AT nades come free off the bat, ill accept merge and orah as a free advantage that cannonade likes to preach about.

note that i used the situation of mid and late game since we are on the issue of scaling. vetted and upgraded grens are going to be around and they completely force charging ppsh conscripts to retreat within a few short burst or, ppsh conscripts are going to stand at max range and do nothing to grens while getting chipped away by lmg fire.

dp28 guards and grens are barely equal, cost wise and availability wise. also, there's no tipping of scales here like

German player have 5 squads of Grens, while Soviet player have 3 squads of Cons + 2 squads of Guards or Shocks. Right now Cons are worse than LMG Grens but Elite infantry tips the scale.

This thread is hilarious!

It's like creationists versus evolutionists!

One has evidence, the other doesn't but will still debate because wasting time is better than admitting to be wrong.

AD.1. I don't get the logic behind this sorry. I know you need to research Molotov and AT nade but to be able to use Rifle nade and Panzerfaust you need to research Battle fase 1 as well so no, these are not coming free. It's about timing rather then anything else.

AD.2. PPSH Conscripts are countering LMG Grens in close range.

AD.3. DK-28 Guards are equal to LMG Grens.

Fausts are free right out of the gate, and I've never seen nor played an Ostheer game that didn't get BP1 before the 5 minute mark. Riflenades are also as good as free. It's not like molotovs and AT nades research instantly either.

It requires a shitload more micro to beat LMG grens with PPSh conscripts than the other way around, and I use both units quite heavily. Unlike Shocks, conscripts melt very fast to ranged fire. Plus, exactly what's wrong with a doctrinal close-range upgrade beating a non-doctrinal long-range upgrade at close range?

They are pretty equivalent, yes. Except grens are 240 mp + 60 ammo, while Guards are doctrinal 330 mp + 75 ammo. They get more anti-vehicle utility (magic word!) in return so it's balanced, but you can't 1v1 the grens in cost. In fact, other than maybe rifles, I don't think any allied infantry is as cost-effective as LMG grens.

The point is, Merge and Ooorah are features of conscripts, just like free riflenades and fausts are features of grens. Saying we shouldn't buff conscripts because they have Merge and Ooorah is a bit silly, most infantry have different abilities and that doesn't stop Relic from shuffling their balance around when needed. Scaling is quite different from native abilities, regardless of what Cannonade says. And molotovs/AT nades is not enough to properly scale conscripts, is all.

I wonder if one member of conscripts squads, the squad leader, had a SVT or something, like Penal battalions have.

One of six would have slightly better damage and accuracy at range. As the squad loses members, the SVT is retained to the last man, making a 1 man conscript squad identical damage wise to a one man penal battalion.

Would this make conscripts scale better to late game? Slightly.

But what it would really do is make conscripts able to hold out in combat for a slightly longer time before being worthless. By the time conscripts have lost 3 members, their damage output is negligible.

On a vastly more pronounced scale, a gren squad with an lmg42 is almost as strong with 1 member as it is at full strength, just by virtue of the lmg42's power.

SVTs are no lmg42, but they're better than the bolt rifles that spend more time aiming than shooting. One in a squad of 6 would have a tiny, but cascading effect that would improve how the squad functions ingame.

do you suggest spawning them already with a SVT or giving them a weapon upgrade?

@ZombiFrancis
The thing is that we're looking at how the cons will stay relevant mid-late game. This isn't per say a "buff cons thread" but rather finding a role cons can play later on. Having 1 SVT is nice but doesn't really solve the issue of scaling.

@Zombiefrancis: Just fyi, Bad_Vaders proposal is either to reduce Con reinforce cost by 5 once T3/T4 is reached, or give Cons a 3xPPSH upgrade at T3/T4 for 60-70 Munis (which have reduced stats compared to Commander PPSH.

On topic:

Id be alright with swapping ATNade and Molotov with Oorah and Merge, as native abilities, and then including a PPSH upgrade as specifically per Bad_Vaders proposal. So that instead Oorah and Merge would be the purchased ones from HQ (or well why not individually on units).

So basically:

-Merge/Oorah swapped with ATNade/Molotov, so that the latter become the native ones.
-Add 3xPPSH at 60-70 Muni Upgrade (weaker than Commander PPSH) at T1+.
-ATNade is available right from start. Free.
-Molotov is available at T1+. Free.
-As to pricing of Merge and Oorah, Id set them exactly at the cost of HQ Universal ATNade and Molotov, and at Relics discretion, there is a small cost discrepancy between Sov/Ost T1 costs, so that might need to be "taken back" on something. But its quite small.
---- Or, alternatively make them unit specific upgrade for Muni (or whichever amount).

How does that sound?

Well that's my point. They can become relevant mid-late game without directly altering or adding abilities.

It seems like such a minor change, but the scaling would be spread across the entire game. The squads would have a more scalable durability on the field. Their ability to remain as a presence in combat would be extended just a slight amount.

All they need to do is survive long enough to knock a gren squad down a squad member or two and they've done more than pull their weight. Mid-late game anything but a full strength gren squad is just asking for an instagib from mines, mortars, tank shells, or anything American.

A little change will pay off in dividends, especially considering the utility of conscripts HQ upgrade abilities and how those scale to mid-late game.

And I was suggesting that they spawn with one SVT. Not enough to change how the squad functions, but enough to give them slightly bigger teeth as they lose squad members.

As far as those proposed changes, I don't think any of them are great solutions.

Merge and Oorah are not abilities I would ever spend resources on just to unlock. AT nades and molotovs are the number one thing about conscripts that make them a nasty thorn in the Axis side mid to late game.

Merge is pretty much ignored, and Oorah has limited utility. They would be ignored even more if they came from behind a resource wall. If anything unlocking them at t1/2 or t3/4 is infinitely more preferable, but still not ideal.

PPSH upgrades would be good, but considering there already are commander PPSH upgrades, I can't see it being an easy implementation. Not to mention it would require a number of commander redesigns just because the gameplay implications of turning conscripts into true CQC units without doctrine.

I say if they don't get weapon upgrades, change the vet scaling. Either or. No need to do both. Anything that is a modest change to help them do something mid/late will be nice and gratefully appreciated

And I was suggesting that they spawn with one SVT. Not enough to change how the squad functions, but enough to give them slightly bigger teeth as they lose squad members.

I see. Well I like your idea of a sort of "squad leader", reminds me of DoW2 IG.
Infact, in retrospect, it would have been very cool if Cons "scaled" like IG did in DoW2, with more models, weapons and even a unit leader, but I think its too late for such a comprehensive change

However I have to point out, that there is one crucial problem with Cons spawning with even a single SVT.

It would mean Cons categorically win the first engagements (especially vs Grens, which are their closest and most benchmarked balance equivalent and the equivalence is hairline thin atm. As well as increasing efficacy significantly vs Support Teams and Pios).

I cant see them spawning with an SVT.
It would have to be a small upgrade, at cost.
But I think there is room for toying around with this idea abit, as to what weapon upgrade, if any, would be available to Cons.
(So far Ive run with Bad_Vaders PPSH varietynproposal, since he took the time to be specify costs and efficay in his proposal, so its a concrete frame of reference to work with)

What I'd love to see, but it'll never happen:

1)Cons get PTRS upgrade (after building T1 or T2), but lose AT nades. Button is moved to PTRS.
2)Penals get AT nades by default, SVT weapon profile is adjusted to emphasize close range role - or just give them PPSHs.
3)Guards lose PTRS, but get DPs by default (this way some doctrines get elite short range infantry, some long range).
4)All above comes with price adjustments if neccessary.

Effects:
1)playing T1 now allows for light-undoctrinal AT. Penals and cons now synergize (also as long and close range units).
2)balance would probably get all screwed at first
3)a lot of doctrines would need to be redesigned, so it won't ever happen

But hell, it would be cool

I see. Well I like your idea of a sort of "squad leader", reminds me of DoW2 IG.
Infact, in retrospect, it would have been very cool if Cons "scaled" like IG did in DoW2, with more models, weapons and even a unit leader, but I think its too late for such a comprehensive change

However I have to point out, that there is one crucial problem with Cons spawning with even a single SVT.

It would mean Cons categorically win the first engagements (especially vs Grens, which are their closest and most benchmarked balance equivalent and the equivalence is hairline thin atm. As well as increasing efficacy significantly vs Support Teams and Pios).

I cant see them spawning with an SVT.
It would have to be a small upgrade, at cost.
But I think there is room for toying around with this idea abit, as to what weapon upgrade, if any, would be available to Cons.
(So far Ive run with Bad_Vaders PPSH varietynproposal, since he took the time to be specify costs and efficay in his proposal, so its a concrete frame of reference to work with)

Yah it would change their early game too much which I think right now is okay. Maybe offer it as upgrade after T1 or T2. Both buildings could offer different strategies/synergy

Omg this topic.
Please play something else than Soviet from time to time to understand the bigger picture.
Everyone is arguing how Cons are weak completely neglecting the fact of Soviet Elite infantry.
Yes, let's make Cons equal to lmg Greens so they can fight equal battle so latter we can stomp everything with veted Shocks.

I'm telling you here and now that weapon upgrade will never happened because Relic took the commander approach to implement this so you don't have access to good late game Cons and Elite infantry at the same time.

The only change we can talk about is veterancy change so they are more resiliant but I think this is sorted already by 6 men squad.


Request to give Cons some kind of weapon upgrade appeared almost at the release of the game and Relic still didn't implemented this so there is a small chance of this happening.
What's more they specifically said that Cons aren't supposed to scale well late game which means that the whole faction has been designed around that. Any change to this requires complete re balance to the whole Soviet faction so I'd really be surprised if they decided to change this especially that Soviets are pretty well balanced right now and I'd rather expect some nerfs rather than buffs.


I liked how my comment that Soviet got more starting fuel to offset for the molotov and AT nade upgrade was ignored.

I really would like to read what Siberian had in mind regarding the subject though.

I liked how my comment that Soviet got more starting fuel to offset for the molotov and AT nade upgrade was ignored.

I really would like to read what Siberian had in mind regarding the subject though.

Germans start with 15?
Fuel: 10 15 25 + 45 55
MP: 80 120 160 + 200 200

150fuel (135) + 760mp for T1+T2+T3 Rnade+LMG at BP1 n FHT BP2
_______________

Soviets starts with 50
Fuel: 40/50 + 120 + 25 + 25
MP: 120/160 + 240 + 125 + 125

210/220fuel (160/170) + 570/610mp T1/T2 + T3/T4 + AT nades + Molotovs

_________________________________________

On another subject:

"I'm telling you here and now that weapon upgrade will never happened because Relic took the commander approach to implement this so you don't have access to good late game Cons and Elite infantry at the same time. "

Guard Rifle (PPSH + Guards) and Shock Army (PPSH + shocks) wants some words with you

OZ: This is a buff Cons thread.
Weve seen em a dozen times over before.

Roll with it, if you know what I mean

Sibs post is somewhere in this thread, but iirc he didnt elaborate much in terms of a specific proposal.

Tbh anyways pros of this game mostly have remarkably different views to us mortals, and even moreso to other pros. I respect their skill and experience, but frankly, and I mean this with all due respect, most of their suggestions leave me scratching my head not quite understanding how they came to their specific change suggestions.

Edited to add:

Elchino7: Im looking at your numbers, but honestky dont understand what they are showing.
Could you include a bit of anotation/labelling to make it more clear what is what?

OZ: This is a buff Cons thread.
Weve seen em a dozen times over before.

Roll with it, if you know what I mean

Sibs post is somewhere in this thread, but iirc he didnt elaborate much in terms of a specific proposal.

Tbh anyways pros of this game mostly have remarkably different views to us mortals, and even moreso to other pros. I respect their skill and experience, but frankly, and I mean this with all due respect, most of their suggestions leave me scratching my head not quite understanding how they came to their specific change suggestions.

not to go off topic

Yes this is very true. If you are familiar with Riot and League of Legends. THey make "quality of life" changes that "balance" of some sorts without tweaking numbers and things