Foucs on the details, Relic, Plz

When can we have next patch to fix all kinds of bugs?
It has to be point out that, at this stage, coh2 is heading way to the right direction, but as a coh2 fan, i really feel embarassed to see coh2 introduced to ESL in current situation.

MG facing backward, over power ability, sometimes you just can not select your vehicle, US vehicle crew still stand when killed,etc this kinds of small details will make game looks awkward when being played and will have significant negative impact to promote the game.

People will have impression that Relic is just care-less company which ignore these small bugs and details.

I am not in a position to make any judgements, but the way i see it, some of problems should never exist, it makes no logic sense, take MG backward for instance, why is happening? why introducing a new patch will always create another problem?

what is your standard operating procedure? for instance, if you are are going to build a new model, should be a checklist to make sure everything is ok? otherwise, you are just keep repetiting these low level mistakes, waste extra man power and resource to fix these endless careless bugs.

I really doubt the way your guys manage to produce the game, the best way to solve a problem is prevent it, not let it happen in the first place.

But apprarently it just keep happening, but only explanation is there is no proper management and procedure in the studio,

Useless rant...

"why introducing a new patch will always create another problem?"

Useless rant...

A bit of reading for you
http://mrlizard.com/rants/why-havent-they-fixed-this-bug/

Maybe you'll understand it has nothing to do with Relic, but yay whatever, you won't even take the time to read that link. Still i can agree that some bugs have been there for a long time, yet you blame the wrong people.

I am also displeased by the fact that Relic is not focusing on fixing bugs (like game freezing and sooo many others) but rather on creating new features in order to make the game more commercial.

I am also displeased by the fact that Relic is not focusing on fixing bugs (like game freezing and sooo many others) but rather on creating new features in order to make the game more commercial.

My previous post adresses your concern too.

A bit of reading for you
http://mrlizard.com/rants/why-havent-they-fixed-this-bug/

Maybe you'll understand it has nothing to do with Relic, but yay whatever, you won't even take the time to read that link. Still i can agree that some bugs have been there for a long time, yet you blame the wrong people.

Well I actually read it. Not saying it's untrue, but still debatable.

Well I actually read it. Not saying it's untrue, but still debatable.

Debatable if you had at least a little clue of what is behind the scene. I'm a professional in banking software, and NO it is not gaming developement, but YES, most of what is written about large projects, resource management is true.

What do you want to contest ? The fact that devs are not interchangeable in their tasks ? Or the fact that some bugs are hard to fix and require lots of overhead control to have the right person working on the right issue, at the right time ?

Debatable if you had at least a little clue of what is behind the scene. I'm a professional in banking software, and NO it is not gaming developement, but YES, most of what is written about large projects, resource management is true.

it doesn't matter what you are and/or how much work it is to fix things.

this isnt about a ''fancy hat'' that somebody wants in the game. relic wants coh2 to be competitive which can not happen right now.

imagine this:

a intense battle is going on, in a tourney that gives the winner thousands of dollars, player A has a few grens or whatever and a mg, player B has hordes of infantry flooding the map. not a problem since the mg will stop the communist flood, but wait! what is this? why did player A set his mg in the wrong direction? oh never mind that was just the bug that has been implemented for a higher gaming experience. lets retreat this mg to save it, oh no you dont, what about your troops paking up the mg while the guy packing it gets shot and the animation starts again. aaaaah finally it is packed up, but why is he just standing there? now it is moving, oh noeeeeeees it is running in the wrong direction and gets killed. that is a shiny new MG for player B, NICE!

too bad for player A he just lost the first big engagement and if player B doesnt make any stupid mistakes he looses the whole game because of that...


but yeh he can just go and read the article that a pissed of programmer wrote and feel good about it. and after he read that article he can enjoy the fancy new USF campaign, that will definately make up for the loss of money.

atleast Sniper/Guards ISU a-move to win still works great

it doesn't matter what you are and/or how much work it is to fix things.

Stopped reading after that. It just means i know quite a bit about how the industry works, and no, it is not revolving around what YOU think is the most important thing in the game's existence. You feel a bug is game breaking, fine, you report it, and eventually, it will be fixed. They won't stop everything else because that bug bothers you.

The writer of the article is spot on, and it explains facts. If you can't accept them, it's your problem.

Stopped reading after that. It just means i know quite a bit about how the industry works, and no, it is not revolving around what YOU think is the most important thing in the game's existence. You feel a bug is game breaking, fine, you report it, and eventually, it will be fixed. They won't stop everything else because that bug bothers you.

The writer of the article is spot on, and it explains facts. If you can't accept them, it's your problem.

Working in the bank should make you more aware about CUSTOMER POLICY, or CUSTOMER RELATIONSHIP MANAGEMENT.
He is right. After all, I HAVE ALL THE RIGHT IN THE WORLD to say to you I DON'T CARE about your internal problems, you give me the product I paid for, and that I expected. It's your problem how you manage your internal resources, it's not MY CONCERN!

That is why I said it's debatable, meaning I understand how things work, I HAVE BEEN THERE, in a multinational (and even a financial institution similar to a bank) and I know how carefull they were related to CUSTOMER SATISFACTION.

Playing the smart guy won't help you, anyway your link says all about it when you read that phrase there:
“The customer is always right!”

and the answer that you love:
"No, the customer is usually an idiot who has no clue."

A bit of reading for you
http://mrlizard.com/rants/why-havent-they-fixed-this-bug/

Maybe you'll understand it has nothing to do with Relic, but yay whatever, you won't even take the time to read that link. Still i can agree that some bugs have been there for a long time, yet you blame the wrong people.

I have read it till the end, as an engineer, i do have some experience of managing the project, the way i see that article, it is just whiner who complaining about the customers, if coh2 is managed so well, it should not have such low level mistakes, more important, without customer, what is the point of products? As that article point out, different team focus on the different things, but that does not mean it could be the excuse to allow bug to happen,

you find the problem, you find out why it happen and then you solve it, as simple as that, why every patch will create new problem which never exist before?

here are some guesses, maybe their coder program it in a such bad manner so every patch touches some part of code even they didnt realize it, coh2 is a really big game, with god-knows how many lines of code, but if they need to take a quite time to solve these low level bugs, i would like to say, they need to know how to code in a good manner.

i dont know their program structure, how it works, but as an software and electrical engineer, i would like to say if you can program it in a good manner in the first place, it should be pretty damn easy to fix these thing, even more, these bugs should never happen, these careless mistakes makes them look so unprofessional in the gaming industry

............makes them look so unprofessional in the gaming industry

but they jumped out of a airplane to explain warspoils which never worked satisfying and all that other kewl stuff, they look sooo kewl and professional!


SlaYoU:

believe it or not we all have to work with customers of some kind and they are a pain in the ass. but it is their fkin right to do so, they pay you to get stuff done.

the fat chick standing in line at burger king waiting for you to finish her xtra mega tripple fatass chesseburger doesnt care if you cant flip the patties because your hand feels so tense from wanking of the night before, or because your iq is too low to turn on the oven. she paid 2.99$ to become even more fat and nothing else matters.


and like you said, different departments, relic works on a new campaing? cool! they work on new commanders/maps/whatever? cool! but there is someone whos job it is to keep the game up and running as intended, and that guy is either not doing his job, or totally overwhelmed and left alone.

in both cases relic needs to change their style




edit. i just see siberian is browsing this, lets see what a player that is plagued by several bugs every game has to say here.

i highly doubt he will write or read anything here since i is a hard thing to do with all those tears in his eyes because relic hates him

I knew i wasted my time posting in that thread. Anyway i'll try to answer both of you in one post, without quotes:

I don't know what baffles me the most, the fact you think you understand how it works, or the fact that you read what was written, then still counter attack with claims such as "i am the customer, i don't care if you have problems delivering the product i paid for, i am entitled to whine about everything i do not like".

The fact is, when a bank customer is displeased with the service provided, he/she can just pick the money, cross the street, and register an account somewhere else. Hence the special care that those companies provide to their customer base. In this case, what will you do ? Uninstall the game and buy Starcraft 2 ? Relic already has your money. Sure it will be one less player, but who cares ? Haters gonna hate anyway, so the community may be better without you.

If, like you claim, you are a software engineer, you would know that no product is bug free (not at release, not ever). If this is a sign of bad work for you, i do not have anything to point you at, rather than pure experience in the industry.

And to be fair, customer relationship management has nothing to do with bug fixing, sure it can have some impact in the trust the customer has towards you as a game developer, but (again), it is not handled by the same people within the company. I'm not saying Relic is perfect in their PR or even the technical department, but i'm just saying you can't step in, and blame them for releasing a new campaign for the game, while "ignoring" the issues which are currently running in the released version of the software. It is simply not realistic.

You think i am acting like the smart guy, fine. You can delve into your own inner misconception for as long as you desire, i won't try to enlighten you anymore.

MG facing backward, over power ability

These are not details but serious issues ^^

quite frankly i dont care. they are hired professionals and have to do their job like everyone else

unfortunately you aren't the one determining what their jobs are.

what i think of the customer is always right philosophy.

click here

I also think the current state of the game isn't really good.
Lots of bugs, optimization, weird things happening and so on.

People will have impression that Relic is just care-less company which ignore these small bugs and details.

Would they be terribly wrong?

Hell, I know it is nearly impossible to make everything work perfect in a rather complex game like this. Starcraft 2 doesn't suffer so much from such issues, but that is because Blizzard sets other priorities and in return also use more simple game mechanics. So in a way this is a design choice.

On the other hand you see a lot of evidence for sloppy and chaotic work from Relic. For example when they accidentally mix parts of old game versions with new patches, or when they manipulate parts of game files in patches that don't even get used in the game because their files are so chaotic and don't even know themselves which ones are used and which are not (happened in DoW2 a few times). That doesn't appear very professional, and I think it shows in the game.

That bug that you mention of Machine guns turning the wrong way around hasn't always been there, it just at some patch version randomly appeared. And guess what, the same happened in DoW2 as well, it worked all the time fine and then suddenly the exact same bug appeared here as well. Coincidence?

Or we have the really annoying autocover system here in CoH2 which removes control from the player and causes really annoying unit behaviour like units automatically running into the fire of a molotov to get to the cover even though you just removed the squad from there, or squads already in cover running out of it to run to another cover which puts you at a disadvantage. That system existed also in DoW2, and players hated it and Relic eventually removed it from Multiplayer. Now we have a new game and apparently the developer team members don't talk to each other about such things, because we have the same annoying system back here causing the same issues again.

I could mention even more things, but you get the idea, so enough of that.

Regarding "esports", no one is expecting this game to become big in esports anyway, it is just not designed for this, RNG alone would be already too big of a factor and the community is too small. Doesn't mean people cannot still have fun with tournaments and despite all the flaws of the game I don't see much issue in this. I doubt that the ESL partnership will attract tons of people to watch who are not already interested in CoH2 anyway, it is just a nice thing for the community that is already active in this.


edit: Ah yeah, didn't even mention performance / optimization issues as mentioned in posts above.

okay lets give you a brief example of why this is utter bullshit:


you go to a hooker and pay her for a blowjob and/or sex. she fails to give you an orgasm and you are not satisfied. she then proceeds and links you to a blog where another hooker unable to give orgasm whines about how hard (hehe) it is to please customers and how they dont know the complexity of an orgasm.

that shit still doesnt give you what you paid for. just because i rant here doesnt mean i dont understand that it is a very complex thing to do.

quite frankly i dont care. they are hired professionals and have to do their job like everyone else

I think it is not an appropriate example. In the case of software marketing in general, what would be unacceptable would be "We know about that bug, but we don't have time / resources to try and fix it". On the other hand, acknowledging the issue and doing your best to resolve it doesn't mean they have to keep you informed every day about the progress of their work. That's the trust part.

When you buy a car, you expect that the manufacturer brand to have the means to repair any failure you might encounter while using their product. But you don't expect your new car to never have said failures during it's life cycle. Again, it is not realistic.

Say the devs are splitted in two teams (this is a bold statement, in fact there are many more, but i make the problem simpler with only two): one is creating new content, and one is fixing existing content. You claim that the team working on the maintenance of the game is not working properly. I say that you have no means to back up your claim with facts, since neither you (or me, for that matter) have seen how Relic manages their teams and their schedule. It may be too slow for YOU, but again, it is about you and maybe a few other impatient people. Given time, they'll reach something close to perfect (but only close to, as i said, no software is ever bug-free).

unfortunately you aren't the one determining what their jobs are.

what i think of the customer is always right philosophy.

click here

Well put, and nice read by the way

Would they be terribly wrong?

Hell, I know it is nearly impossible to make everything work perfect in a rather complex game like this. Starcraft 2 doesn't suffer so much from such issues, but that is because Blizzard sets other priorities and in return also use more simple game mechanics. So in a way this is a design choice.

On the other hand you see a lot of evidence for sloppy and chaotic work from Relic. For example when they accidentally mix parts of old game versions with new patches, or when they manipulate parts of game files in patches that don't even get used in the game because their files are so chaotic and don't even know themselves which ones are used and which are not (happened in DoW2 a few times). That doesn't appear very professional, and I think it shows in the game.

That bug that you mention of Machine guns turning the wrong way around hasn't always been there, it just at some patch version randomly appeared. And guess what, the same happened in DoW2 as well, it worked all the time fine and then suddenly the exact same bug appeared here as well. Coincidence?

Or we have the really annoying autocover system here in CoH2 which removes control from the player and causes really annoying unit behaviour like units automatically running into the fire of a molotov to get to the cover even though you just removed the squad from there, or squads already in cover running out of it to run to another cover which puts you at a disadvantage. That system existed also in DoW2, and players hated it and Relic eventually removed it from Multiplayer. Now we have a new game and apparently the developer team members don't talk to each other about such things, because we have the same annoying system back here causing the same issues again.

I could mention even more things, but you get the idea, so enough of that.

Regarding "esports", no one is expecting this game to become big in esports anyway, it is just not designed for this, RNG alone would be already too big of a factor and the community is too small. Doesn't mean people cannot still have fun with tournaments and despite all the flaws of the game I don't see much issue in this. I doubt that the ESL partnership will attract tons of people to watch who are not already interested in CoH2 anyway, it is just a nice thing for the community that is already active in this.


edit: Ah yeah, didn't even mention performance / optimization issues as mentioned in posts above.

i got your idea,pretty surprised when heard out those bugs about DOW2