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Incoming received accuracy for OKW units

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drChengele
18 Aug 2014, 08:48 AM
#21
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"Incoming received accuracy"? As opposed to outgoing received accuracy or incoming given accuracy? :p

By the time Obers or Jaegers hit the field (especially Obers) there will be loads of weapons on both sides that just don't give a fuck about the received accuracy modifier.

And, as said before, armour is useless against tank guns and indirect fire. But then, so is received accuracy - infantry has such low size anyway the tanks almost always "miss" and then hit them through scatter.

I don't think anyone expects Obers to soak up tank fire, though. The problem, I think, comes from massed upgraded US infantry tearing them a new one at medium and long ranges, which just doesn't "feel" right. Against conscripts, guards, vanilla Riflemen etc. the Obers are in fact a bitch to get rid of.
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MilkaCow
18 Aug 2014, 11:52 AM
#22
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Posts: 577

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2014, 12:47 PMvietnamabc

Uhm against small arms received acc only matter at long range, whereas armour is always relavent no matter the range. It is only against tanks shell that received acc modifier really counts.


No, it does matter. There are only very few units that can get even close to 100% accuracy, even at close range. It's really annoying if people spread false information.


There is basically not much difference between armor and received accuracy just like Shepherd said. Gameplay wise they perform almost the same. One means the enemy misses, the other means the shot deals no damage. The only important difference is vs small arms weapon with penetration above one - The unit with armor will take more damage than the one with reduced incoming accuracy.
If penetration >= armor, the shot will always deal damage, else with a (penetration/armor) chance. Whereas the accuracy is for most units the way that they cannot reach 100% accuracy.

The major difference is visual. Obersoldaten, Fallschirmjäger and such are not wearing armor. Shocks on the other hand are wearing body armor. Having a shot impact on an unarmored soldier and dealing no damage looks weird. The change had almost no impact gameplay wise, but improved the looks.
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Cannonade
18 Aug 2014, 12:02 PM
#23
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Posts: 752

How does received accuracy work with cover modifiers?

Additive or multiplicative?
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
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drChengele
18 Aug 2014, 12:12 PM
#24
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Multiplicative.
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wooof
18 Aug 2014, 17:35 PM
#25
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2014, 16:32 PMCruzz
The only infantry that can reach over 100% accuracy at some range is...wait for it...vet2 or higher axis infantry. And even there it's mostly just Obersoldaten kars, Grenadiers when supported by an officer, Pgren G43s when supported by officer etc.


the point here is, besides obersoldaten, this requires vet infantry to be buffed by an officer.

soviets can do the same thing with fhqs. non vet shocks, guards (98.5% accuracy without vet), maxim, dshk, and vet penals can all exceed 100%.

then in team games you have vet rifles, m2hb, non vet pathfinders, non vet paratroopers etc.
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Cannonade
19 Aug 2014, 10:56 AM
#26
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2014, 12:12 PMdrChengele
Multiplicative.


I see.

Then isn't armor a stronger modifier when in cover, since its additive, than accuracy reduction?
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
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Katitof
19 Aug 2014, 11:15 AM
#27
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2014, 17:35 PMwooof


the point here is, besides obersoldaten, this requires vet infantry to be buffed by an officer.

soviets can do the same thing with fhqs. non vet shocks, guards (98.5% accuracy without vet), maxim, dshk, and vet penals can all exceed 100%.

then in team games you have vet rifles, m2hb, non vet pathfinders, non vet paratroopers etc.


FHQ gives accuracy modifier?

Wasn't it damage modifier?
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Skinless
19 Aug 2014, 11:21 AM
#28
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Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2014, 05:42 AM$nuffy
I agree, Obersoldaten for such an expensive and elite squad that comes into a game when all enemy infantry has a few ranks already - drop too easily.




i dont know how you use them, but they kill any infantry as long as you keep the range. i build obers in every game and they always do a very good job, hell 2 squads of them even counter maxims, and snipers melt to them aswell


obers are fine, received accuracy is good as it is
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Cruzz
19 Aug 2014, 11:56 AM
#29
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Aug 2014, 11:15 AMKatitof


FHQ gives accuracy modifier?

Wasn't it damage modifier?


Accuracy on infantry and MGs. Damage on mortars, atguns, artillery.

That said, OKW and their one-hit-guarantees-collapse stukas removed the few remaining FHQs you might have seen from the game already. Even the wehrmacht officer is 50 times more likely to be seen than the FHQ buff now.
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Cannonade
19 Aug 2014, 12:14 PM
#30
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If armor is additive with cover modifiers.
If reduced accuracy is multiplicative with cover modifiers.

Isnt armor the better option atleast vs small arms?
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
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Aerohank
19 Aug 2014, 12:41 PM
#31
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Aug 2014, 12:14 PMCannonade
If armor is additive with cover modifiers.
If reduced accuracy is multiplicative with cover modifiers.

Isnt armor the better option atleast vs small arms?


Armor is just a modifier in itself. There is no difference other than for weapons that ignore armor. Which one is better against small arms fire is mostly dependent on the actual values. 2 armor beats 0.75 received accuracy for example.

For armor it's: chance to hit * cover modifier * (penetration/armor); where the last modifier is removed when penetration > armor
For accuracy received modifier it's: chance to hit * cover modifier * accuracy modifier.

Accuracy received modifiers are better against basically everything. The only time this modifier does not help is when the above equation is >1. This can happen when you have say, your obersoldaten in red cover against a vetted up guard squad that is standing next to a FHQ.

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Vaz
19 Aug 2014, 13:01 PM
#32
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Posts: 1158

I feel like received accuracy is the stronger one here, since a smart player can use cover to boost that bonus even more. I haven't run the numbers to see which gives more, but getting obers in particular out of cover with small arms is really hard.

Is the received accuracy being applied correctly to falls? I seem to be killing them pretty easy with conscripts. Not that I feel OKW needs any tougher infantry, but some of these fall squads are dying so fast it doesn't feel right to make them cost 400mp (I don't know if that's right, I haven't checked but I've read people say it is).

I think there are some interesting ways that armor can be put in the game without it being OP. Such as being able to tone down some weapons (like LMGS) towards unarmored units (because it's a little stupid right now), and instead provide value in penetration.
29 Jul 2014, 12:16 PM by siuking666:
T34/76 is NOT a joke on my hands; Maybe on your hands you make it suck shit? but on me, No. I can kill a stug with a little micro, go toe to toe with a Panzer 4. Is it a joke? LOL T34/85 is apparently a very good tank. But no one says it "one hit wipe" or elefant penetration; up to a point i think this little medium tank just have too much health and too much firepower with that fuel cost.
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Cannonade
19 Aug 2014, 13:02 PM
#33
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Posts: 752

Yes, but armor stacks ontop of cover modifiers, additively, rather than multiplicatively, as does accuracy reduction.

So at its core (disregarding the magnitude of the armor or the accuracy reduction for the moment) armor is better vs small arms, because it sits ontop of the cover modifier.

Vs other things that also are affected by the accuracy received modifier, yes, that is superior to armor, for sure.

But my point being that vs small arms, it seems to me that the armor modifier is a more effective option.
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
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drChengele
19 Aug 2014, 13:30 PM
#34
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Aug 2014, 12:14 PMCannonade
If armor is additive with cover modifiers.
If reduced accuracy is multiplicative with cover modifiers

I am not sure what you mean by armour being "additive". What value is summed with another value where? Armour is used AFTER a bullet calculates as a hit (and therefore has already rolled against the cover modifiers). This new roll behaves multiplicatively, in that armour further reduces a chance to receive damage, on top of the cover reducing the chance to even get hit. Nowhere is the value of armour "added" to the cover modifiers, that I know of. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
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Vaz
19 Aug 2014, 13:34 PM
#35
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Posts: 1158

The way you described the process is the way I understand it.
29 Jul 2014, 12:16 PM by siuking666:
T34/76 is NOT a joke on my hands; Maybe on your hands you make it suck shit? but on me, No. I can kill a stug with a little micro, go toe to toe with a Panzer 4. Is it a joke? LOL T34/85 is apparently a very good tank. But no one says it "one hit wipe" or elefant penetration; up to a point i think this little medium tank just have too much health and too much firepower with that fuel cost.
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MilkaCow
19 Aug 2014, 14:27 PM
#36
avatar of MilkaCow

Posts: 577

Example, made up numbers:
A unit in cover gets only hit 50% of the times.

Now we have the two possibilities, 1.5 armor or 66% incoming accuracy modifier. Both are the same (1/1.5 = 0.66).

50% * 66% = 33% Chance to hit and
1 / 1 = 100% chance to deal damage upon hit, resulting in total 33%.

50% * 100% = 50% Chance to hit and
1 / 1.5 = 66% chance to deal damage upon hit, resulting in total of 33%.

There is literally no difference. None. 0. Nada.
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The_Courier
19 Aug 2014, 15:20 PM
#37
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Posts: 665

The stats guru have spoken. Praise be to their wisdom and may this silly topic end already.
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Cannonade
19 Aug 2014, 15:30 PM
#38
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Aug 2014, 14:27 PMMilkaCow
Example, made up numbers:
A unit in cover gets only hit 50% of the times.

Now we have the two possibilities, 1.5 armor or 66% incoming accuracy modifier. Both are the same (1/1.5 = 0.66).

50% * 66% = 33% Chance to hit and
1 / 1 = 100% chance to deal damage upon hit, resulting in total 33%.

50% * 100% = 50% Chance to hit and
1 / 1.5 = 66% chance to deal damage upon hit, resulting in total of 33%.

There is literally no difference. None. 0. Nada.


I see.

How about in conjunction with cover modifiers?
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
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MilkaCow
19 Aug 2014, 15:35 PM
#39
avatar of MilkaCow

Posts: 577

No difference. Let's adapt to make it more clear:

Example, made up numbers:
A unit has 71% chance to hit another.
This other unit is in cover, getting a 70% cover bonus.

Hitting this unit therefor is 71% * 70% = ~50%

Now we have the two possibilities, 1.5 armor or 66% incoming accuracy modifier. Both are the same (1/1.5 = 0.66).

50% * 66% = 33% Chance to hit and
1 / 1 = 100% chance to deal damage upon hit, resulting in total 33%.

50% * 100% = 50% Chance to hit and
1 / 1.5 = 66% chance to deal damage upon hit, resulting in total of 33%.

There is literally no difference. None. 0. Nada.
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NinjaWJ
19 Aug 2014, 15:56 PM
#40
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

so why the change by relic?
jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2015, 15:19 PMAlexzandvar
Axis doesn't have the best AT options in the game
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