ISU and Elefant

The difference between the two is that the ISU is pretty good all around but the elephant is amazing at killing tanks comparatively I think that you are just looking at your losses in a skewed perspective which a bar graph of efficiency would solve. ISU is a huge lumbering expensive beast which like the tiger, KT, and IS2 kills pretty much anything it looks at. these tanks all trade in certain areas making them more effective vs infantry or tanks. The ISU would be the graph which the AI would be above the others while its AT is pretty far off the others. The Elephant trades a huge amount of its AI powers to be an amazing tank destroyer which unless you have a few T34-85s up your sleeve signals and end for Allied armor, for the second its spotted you have a few seconds to get it out of sight again to prevent its death. Plus the elephant can be supported by the best muni costing AT being the faust so even if you flank it, there is a huge chance of engine damage which you can use to back off and simply kill whatever tried to flank you.

Also please keep in mind Allied hand held AT is pretty abysmal so your opponent has to pretty much rely on AT guns at this point meaning you can bring out mortars or a sniper to do work countering them

Elefant does NOTHING right now with 70 range,it'll get 1 shot or 2 before enemy closes in at guns begin creep.Then ur done.The imp fact of its range was it could fire multiple times before enemy closed distance with its reload and 70 range...good luck.Add to that no turret and near immobile speed forget kiting .

Elefant does NOTHING right now with 70 range,it'll get 1 shot or 2 before enemy closes in at guns begin creep.Then ur done.The imp fact of its range was it could fire multiple times before enemy closed distance with its reload and 70 range...good luck.Add to that no turret and near immobile speed forget kiting .

Agreed. 70 range crippled it. It can get off one shot, then it´s flanked. Unfortunately it also tends to miss quite a lot of its shots. The difference to the ISU-152 is that the ISU will most likely have annihilated a squad in the process while the Elefant has only damaged something that got away. Not enough for something that´s supposed to be Ostheers ultimate counter to tanks with almost zero anti infantry capabilities.

The thing is: ISU-152 can be supported by Zis guns and you are pretty well secured. The Elefant needs anti infantry cover and Paks, because it´s flanked after that first shot - if you are lucky enough and your opponent does attack you frontally.

There´s way more support needed for the clumsy Elefant.

the thing is that I believe 70 range is to short of a range for both the isu and the elephant. having 10 more range than the long range units isn't enough of a difference.

the thing is that I believe 70 range is to short of a range for both the isu and the elephant. having 10 more range than the long range units isn't enough of a difference.

After the range nerf, ISU players shrugged and carried on as before. Elefant disappeared. 70 appears to be plenty for the ISU.

Biggest problem is the HE AOE of the ISU to kill infantry.

From a stats on paper perspective - ISU and elephant toe to toe is a pretty even matchup
-Same range
-Similar damage
-Elephant has more armor, and a little faster reload

I like the idea of a switchable ammo option for ISU, perhaps both units. Thats what they did in real battles. Load an HE round, Load an AP round, etc. Then again we aren't exactly playing a real combat sim either lol.

Biggest problem is the HE AOE of the ISU to kill infantry.

From a stats on paper perspective - ISU and elephant toe to toe is a pretty even matchup
-Same range
-Similar damage
-Elephant has more armor, and a little faster reload

I like the idea of a switchable ammo option for ISU, perhaps both units. Thats what they did in real battles. Load an HE round, Load an AP round, etc. Then again we aren't exactly playing a real combat sim either lol.

Would be an improvement. Shouldn't the ele have HE rounds too then?

I suggest, make the elefant like it was in beta. Massive range (95 i suggest since it cant shoot through buildings) and nerf its main gun damage to 160 or 240.

Biggest problem is the HE AOE of the ISU to kill infantry.

From a stats on paper perspective - ISU and elephant toe to toe is a pretty even matchup
-Same range
-Similar damage
-Elephant has more armor, and a little faster reload

I like the idea of a switchable ammo option for ISU, perhaps both units. Thats what they did in real battles. Load an HE round, Load an AP round, etc. Then again we aren't exactly playing a real combat sim either lol.

I don't know what stats you are reading, but the ISU and Elephant do not go toe to toe. At all, the ISU is a lot weaker vs tanks.
- Range = same
- Damage = higher for Elephant: 320 vs 240. It's the difference between killing a medium tank in 2 hits vs 3 hits, killing light tanks in 1 hit vs 2 hits. And heavy tanks 3/4 hits vs 4/5 hits.
- Penetration = better for Elephant. At max range, only the IS-2 has a ~5% chance to deflect. It will penetrate any other enemy tank even at max range. The ISU only has 200 pen at long range, giving it only 50% chance to pen a elephant from the front.
- Armor = again, better for elephant. 400 vs 310 from the front.

The anti-infantry power of the ISU is there because the ISU is significantly weaker vs tanks than the elephant.

Now, I do feel the Elephant needs some love, but you made it sound like the ISU was an elephant + massive infantry killing power. Because it's not.

I would personally suggest giving the elephant some of his range back. Probably at least 85 just like the Jagdtiger.

Price reduction or range increase to 80 ?
No overbuff plox.

Regarding the ISU, it´s mostly a map balance problem. On the same way OKW can turtle on small maps, if an ISU player can hold 15-20mins without tanks, on certain maps is a pain in the ass to deal with.

I think there needs to be more differentiation between these two units. They aren't two tank destroyers. ISU is an assault gun and I haven't felt it can be used that way most of the time. I've always had to use it in a defensive way until I had beaten down on the enemy a bit and then I could assault with it.

The elefant felt right the way it was before. It hit tanks hard and from a safe distance, but it consumed a lot of resources and attention. It did seem overpowered at first, but when t34 damage went to 160, it felt right. You could flank the elefant and take it out within reason. You could surround it and take it out easy. It was just a matter of getting rid of the support mostly.

I really don't want players to feel like elefant is just something they can bring on the field for game over though. Support (yes even more at support), should still be critical. With such a slow moving unit, there should still be mines/shreks/pak40 covering the rear.

That said I don't think 70 range makes it useless, but it's not worth the cost at this point. It's like buying a snickers for $5, to me.

The ISU-152 doesn't really need the 100 range to do it's job, but I still feel like it's more expense than it should be due to it's glaring weaknesses. To me it seems like a glass cannon. Yea, it has a lot of HP, but that's something I expect when I fork over 200 or more fuel for something in CoH2. So, while it hits tanks hard and infantry harder, anything can penetrate it and it has really bad mobility. With the elefant you have the bad mobility, but the front armor is hard to get through, even with a tank destroyer. As I understand it the ISU is should have tougher front armor than what it has. I'm not a history buff, but when I look over quick stats of this thing, I see front armor that is as thick or thicker (depending on the model of ISU) than both Tiger tanks. So, why is it that anything can penetrate this thing? This game is not perfectly accurate historically, but it does try to have some similarities. In the game, it's very hard to get better than 60% penetration on Tigers with most allied weapons. To me, that doesn't make for a good gameplay over realism balance. As such, neither does the easy to penetrate ISU front armor.

I've had ISU 1 shot my squads and yea it feels cheap as hell. That was when it was 100 range. It really sucked. Likewise I have also had a tiger blow away 6 conscripts in a single shot. So keeping the ISU at 70 range and strengthening the front armor will allow it to be used as a proper assault gun. Running up to it with some shrek pgrens or volks should not be a viable counter, just as doing the same with some bazooka rifles or ptrs gaurds would do nothing to pretty much any of the German heavy armor. Elefant can then be put back where it was or maybe have 80 or 90 range, to give jagdtiger the range crown.

Would be an improvement. Shouldn't the ele have HE rounds too then?

Not really, it was exclusively tank destroyer. "smaller" tanks and infantry dealt with infantry.

Elefant is like a troll button for OH like T4 is. Lol

I'll vote for an elefant buff the day allies had some kind of infantry able to destroy it.

Having a tank that rapes every other enemy tank and that it's virtually invulnerable to infantry is a pain to deal with. Having to rely exclusively in ATguns and arty to destroy it.
And with schrecks and the superior ATguns and HMGs that Ostheer have is much easier to support and defend an Elefant than an ISU.

At least schrecks do a good damage to ISU-152, IS2 and such. The most that allies can expect of their infantry against elefant is buttoning it or throwing ATnades that most probably will do nothing.

I'll vote for an elefant buff the day allies had some kind of infantry able to destroy it.

Having a tank that rapes every other enemy tank and that it's virtually invulnerable to infantry is a pain to deal with. Having to rely exclusively in ATguns and arty to destroy it.
And with schrecks and the superior ATguns and HMGs that Ostheer have is much easier to support and defend an Elefant than an ISU.

At least schrecks do a good damage to ISU-152, IS2 and such. The most that allies can expect of their infantry against elefant is buttoning it or throwing ATnades that most probably will do nothing.

You may can't destroy it, but you can make it useless: building infantry, AT-Guns and Arty. So basically you gave the solution to youself already. Elefant is indeed strong against tanks - but only against tanks. If you just find a good alternative its useless. All that manpower and fuel wasted because its just facing infantry. In 10 min an Elefant makes like 2 inf kills (a single man, not a squad). And thats the high art of outplaying the enemy.

It was never the goal to destroy the Elefant, your goal is to win the game. He may have a big tank, but what is he going to do if has no infantry because you started to counter it instead of the Elefant?

I think the Ele should have the longest range in the game. Also the pak 43. Only just a bit for both. Reason: They only function as AT!