Soft anti blob needed? How CoH handles small arms and blobs.

I posted this over on reddit here but wanted to bring it here too. Also, if my layman's understanding of mechanics is wrong in this post of the linked one, let me know!

http://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/2cp8wa/soft_antiblob_needed_kinda_wall_o_text_but_really/

Key point/info in middle section. My idea (good or bad) at the end.

[TL;DR:] Increase received accuracy when infantry is blobbed.

It seems that most games devolve into blob v blob. A lucky few have good infantry action in the end game.

Anti-blob weapons work to a limited degree, but end-game blobs can just focus and shit on any MGs they run into. Mortars/howi/ISG do help, but often I find sinking the MP into a howi/ISG leaves me too weak on the front and the enemy blob runs me over and chases of the pack/ISG. Mortars work better, but usually are needed 2x (at least cost is split up into two purchases).

Vehicle counters are reasonable, but generally either force you to commit to an anti-blob unit (risking weakness to armor) or get a less effective general purpose unit.

Off maps are generally to slow to kill, but can at least force the blob to move/retreat.

Now, none of this is bad really, but none of it really makes blobing an unattractive option either.

The whole purpose of blobbing is to concentrate damage. Right click any squad and watch it melt. Slam three simultaneous shrecks into a tank. Etc. While having a massive health pool that is hard for the enemy to deal with w/o lots of AoE weapons.

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If there is one thing about blobs that is so jarring regarding player expectations and game balance/mechanics/limitations it's that they can be so tough in the face of things that should just *devour* them. When a blob (say: 20-25 infantry models - 4-5 rifles, 3 sturms 3 volks, 4-5 scipts, etc) approaches an MG head on I expect that MG to get kills, many kills. I don't care if Hellen Keller is manning that MG, it's such a target rich environment that she has to hit *something*!

But here's where game balance/mechanics/limitations kick in. [You can read this post if you want a bit more detail and some info on vehicle/"big gun" units and how their shooting works](http://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/2bezv0/best_way_to_micro_against_panzerfaust/). The **TL;DR** for small arms is:

* A model picks a target

* Accuracy and weapon info applied

* Hit/miss calculated and damage applied if necessary

Do you see what's missing? When does the "shooting" happen?

For tanks/"big guns" a 'miss' still 'shoots'. Physics goes to work, and if your lucky the shot smacks a target and you get a hit even though you missed.

Now, why does this matter? Because a trajectory is not calculated for small arms fire, there exists no chance for a miss to collide with the target/another model. To calculate all these trajectories is madness (The MG 42 alone would probably make the average users PC freeze ;]). This is a technical limitation that CoH2 must get around. And the game's mechanics do a fantastic job. Except with blobs.

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In our Hellen Keller MG example we would expect the number of shots and the dense, target rich blob to result in a few kills for our MG, but the way the mechanics work she deals a little damage, maybe kills 1-2 models from **one** squad, and suppresses the blob. Within 5 seconds, the blob has focused and slaughtered the MG (Even at max range. Units that excel at this are ober/1919para blobs).

Now *I don't mean to argue that a single MG shouldn't be overwhelmed by a blob. These same ideas apply equally to missed rifle shots.* I picked the MG because I really want to get the idea across that you'd expect plenty of hits/damage across the whole blob considering the number of closely packed targets and the high rate of fire from the MG. But the mechanics concentrate the damage to one squad more or less.

My idea to simulate this target rich environment is to flip the Sherman radio net on it's head. When infantry are in close (1.5x length of conscript sandbags??) to each other they receive a penalty (increase) to received accuracy. *The penalty should either be very small and grow (mo' squads mo' problems) or trigger at a threshold of +3 squads*. I don't want to punish flanking/rushing play or when two squads share cover. **My ideal:** If possible only apply the modifier if the shooting unit has not been ordered to focus a particular enemy. This should mean that allowing your units to auto-engage and spread damage is a good way to deal with the blob. For critical threats, you can still right click and focus a squad, but you trade away the benefits of shooting at the blob as a whole.

IMO, this addresses blobing issues in a fair and realistic way while not making things too easy. Good micro by the defender is rewarded in terms of positioning and pick out key threats. Good micro by the attacker is rewarded by encouraging flanking and avoiding blob penalties. Blobs are still powerful, they just need a bit more micro to stay spread out and strong. It's as simple as taking a blob of 3x stum and 3x shrecked volks and splitting them into a couple small hot keys. Example: 1-2-3 assigned to pairs of sturms & volks or 1) 2x sturms for anti infantry, 2) 1 sturm 1 volk as a balanced responder, 3) 2 x volks for AT. Not only will you easily avoid blobing my moving in pairs, but you can more easily/quickly add fine positioning micro than you could operating the whole blob.

Well, that's all folks.

why do people expect a lone MG to hardcounter 5 attacking units?

Blobbing is already punished violently by many different units. This exact idea has been discussed before and it is absolutely not necessary.

A lone MG can suppress a blob, it can't destroy it. Manage your expectations.

Because a well placed mg can hold up an entire attacking platoon. Trust me, I know... That's the whole point.

Because a well placed mg can hold up an entire attacking platoon. Trust me, I know... That's the whole point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be talking about real life, whereas I am talking about a video game.

I hate the blob meta. Since USF / OKW Blobs are full of AT, you can't use vehicles to counter them, they overrun Machine Guns and Infantry easily, and move to quickly to avoid artillery. The only surefire way to counter a blob is to build a better blob. This isn't Starcraft, and that's not fun. Blobbing is a no-skill tactic with very high rewards, and should be discouraged by nullifying the bonuses of blobbing (extreme survivability + extreme versatility). Even if you misuse your blob and run into multiple MG's, one click of a retreat button and you're entire blob is off the hook with minimal losses. But making blobs take as much damage as they dish out, even from a much smaller force, would destroy blobbing as a viable tactic, and people would need to think of smarter ways to fight, ways that require more work than drag and drop + attack move.

Note: In this case, I consider blobbing to be 3 or more squads each within 10 meters of another.

I hate the blob meta. Since USF / OKW Blobs are full of AT, you can't use vehicles to counter them, they overrun Machine Guns and Infantry easily, and move to quickly to avoid artillery. The only surefire way to counter a blob is to build a better blob.

This is exactly my feelings on the matter. Blobs snowball in power with vet and AT/AI upgrades. This leaves you playing a desparate game where you try to avoid the insane power of the blob while landing a few critical hits on the blob. A zero micro tactic forcing and defeating high micro play is a serious problem.

IDK if my suggestion is the best, but something needs to change.

Manage your expectations.

Can you be more condescending? But sure, I'll reply.

Blobbing is already punished violently by many different units.

No fucking shit. I address this in the opening for lines of my post. This makes me wonder if you read the post or looked at the title, maybe skimmed it, and replied. For your convenience:

Anti-blob weapons work to a limited degree, but end-game blobs can just focus and shit on any MGs they run into. Mortars/howi/ISG do help, but often I find sinking the MP into a howi/ISG leaves me too weak on the front and the enemy blob runs me over and chases of the pack/ISG. Mortars work better, but usually are needed 2x (at least cost is split up into two purchases).

Vehicle counters are reasonable, but generally either force you to commit to an anti-blob unit (risking weakness to armor) or get a less effective general purpose unit.

Off maps are generally to slow to kill, but can at least force the blob to move/retreat.

Now, none of this is bad really, but none of it really makes blobing an unattractive option either.

To expand on that last quoted line, yes many units are 'blob breakers', but jsut playing a few matches shows you that they DO NOT deter blobbing and generally rely on RNG landing a few really good hits. I think these anti blob units are actually pretty good and I don't want to buff them because I think that could easily be overkill.

Also, it's good to note that my suggestion only really affects small arms. most large weapons won't hit more often with an increase to received accuracy. These weapons rarely 'roll a hit' instead, scatter and AoE are much more important in determining how effective they are vs infantry.

By putting the penalty on received accuracy, we limit the scope of the change to infantry vs infantry. This change places more importance on tactics/cover than just raw power.

I hope you aren't focusing too much on the idea of an MG vs blob. It's just a good image to use. This argument is viable for infantry match ups in general. Say 2 obers in cover vs 4 rifles in the open with 1919's (to give another).

Infantry lethality and random squad wipes went trough the roof with WFA

There are more units dedicated to killing infantry and blobs than any other unit type, I really dont think punishing infantry more is needed. I am more comfortable fighting an infantry blob than a mixed army.

why do people expect a lone MG to hardcounter 5 attacking units?

That's not the intention of this post at all. I used the MG as an example because it's a great situation to illustrate my point (regarding a target rich environment and player expectations). Even if you implement this idea 5 attacking units will crush an MG (raw DPS), but the MG will also get to deal good damage for a change instead of just putting a momentary pause in the push.

Please consider how this change affects all infantry, not just MGs. Eg, Rifles in cover vs a charging agren blob or sturm pios holding off a wave of conscripts.

The essential idea here is that small arms get an authentic and needed behavior when faced with a wall of bodies.

I agree with OP, blobbing should be discouraged, and this would be a good way.

Please keep your discussion sweet, guys!

The Balance forum currently has a bad reputation for trolling and flaming - let's try to bring it to a point where outsiders want to read threads because of their content, and then Strat Specialists will return regularly to flesh out a valid POV.

I do agree that the WFA meta is blob-tastic, but I think it's more of a design problem for those factions than anything.

OKW has very sturdy and powerful infantry(Volks + fusilier blob is the most common I see), and their fuel shortage means they rely less on vehicle play until late game. Blobbing into KT/Jagdtiger with maybe a Puma or jagdpanzer as support seems almost like the faction's intended design.

USA is even worse, since they can't even build anything else than rifles until they spend 50 fuel (which gives them another infantry unit) and apart from the AA HT early game, their vehicles have relatively high micro requirements, being all made of paper apart from dozer sherman and E8. Given how powerful 1919s are, it's also easy to scale your rifles into killing machines without spending a drop of fuel.

Another thing that doesn't help is the sheer prevalence of infantry with long range DPS. It was fairly rare in vanilla CoH2, being limited to upgraded Guards and Grenadiers, but it exploded in WFA with all the 1919s, Paras, panzerfusiliers, jaegers, Obers and such. This means that you can simply a-move your blob, and their LMGs or carbines will chew right through anything that isn't as elite as them. Whereas elite infantry with SMGs must close the gap, meaning they 1) need more micro not to die before doing damage and 2) make themselves more vulnerable to anti-infantry weapons.

I'm not sure what would solve the problem that is feasible by Relic. A received accuracy bonus for blobbed (3+ units within like 10 meters) infantry could work. But we don't need to increase general infantry lethality either. I've also been in favor of adding suppression to some artillery pieces, but I'm not certain how it would work in the game proper.

fonz,

I love your idea. It's sad to see something so well thought out just flippantly disregarded.


It takes an inordinate amount of resources to combat blobbing. It gets worse with vet as the game progresses and even more worse when that blob is carrying the best handheld AT in the game.

If there's so many good anti-blobbing tools, why have they not deterred this behavior? They are ineffective tools, and the blobber knows it. Artillery and MGs only delay the blob by forcing a retreat and allow it to happen again I find. I also don't believe ANY lmgs should be able to shoot while moving.

Again, I like your idea and I think it has a lot of promise. I have had similar ideas but the way you put it into words with your example was great.

Another thing that doesn't help is the sheer prevalence of infantry with long range DPS.

...

I'm not sure what would solve the problem that is feasible by Relic. A received accuracy bonus for blobbed (3+ units within like 10 meters) infantry could work. But we don't need to increase general infantry lethality either. I've also been in favor of adding suppression to some artillery pieces, but I'm not certain how it would work in the game proper.

Yup. A few obers or 1919 paras and you can practically just attack-move your way to victory.

I though about buffing some anti-blob, but feared making OP units.

Here, I think I found something that CoH does a poor job of authentically representing ('shooting fish in a barrel' - Densely packed targets). I think it improves authenticity and addresses an issue with the current balance of the game quite nicely.

To mention an alternative. You could spin this idea back around and reduce the outgoing accuracy of blobbed units. Hard to shoot well when people keep bumping you and Hans keeps popping his head right into your sights. This reduces the benefits of blobbing w/o affecting unit survivability.

Blobbing is just as valid a way to play as spreading thin, forming a line or any other kind of formation. As long as all options can be applied and countered, there's no problem.

Discourage any of these formations by design and you make the game more predictable.

This isn't to say that some blobbed units are not overpowered, but blobbing as a valid strategic option needs to stay.

Honestly, I feel that blobbing takes place not because its too easy but because players are often too moronic to do any different.

@ Marco

We can do without pejoratives like 'moronic'. The Balance forum has to up its game and post politely....

KK?

Blobbing is just as valid a way to play as spreading thin, forming a line or any other kind of formation. As long as all options can be applied and countered, there's no problem.

Discourage any of these formations by design and you make the game more predictable.

This isn't to say that some blobbed units are not overpowered, but blobbing as a valid strategic option needs to stay.

I agree, and I don't want to overly punish blobbing. But it's clear to see that it is currently OP in terms of effort in for results as compared to fighting the blob. Ironically, the best counter to a blob is a blob.

I think my suggestion toes the line here. A blob (5 units) will still crush the lone unit (MG,infy,light tank/vehicle) but against 2-3 units face a harder fight as it takes losses from increased received accuracy. But that same blob with better micro (spread out a bit, more individual control -more effort/skill-) can overwhelm and defeat the 2-3 defenders.

Yay magical theory world.

The thread title is so weirdly sexual.