Infiltration grenades working as intended?

I thought this cost much more. These grenades will instantly kill garrisons and setup teams. I mean, molotov is what, 25 munis? Even 20 is too cheap.

That is an insane exaggeration and I'm not even interested in the "no it's not" retort. If you really think they clear out garrisons that easily, please post replays.

I've played with both doctrines that use Infiltration Tactics, these grenades aren't really something that I've ever thought were that great.

If you're lucky, or you know your opponent isn't paying attention, yes, you may have a big pay out, but even on an unsuspecting squad, I rarely see them squad wipe, no more than any other grenade. As it has been pointed out, the animation is incredibly obvious and the range is much shorter than standard grenades. You're also not factoring in the cooldown, unless you have a mass amount of volks, you're not going to have this ability on demand.

Infact, the only upside I have to these is that they are cheap, if it wasn't for their price point, I'd never use them over the standard model.

If they do get changed, this is going to end up poorly. If they become more expensive, they are going to be buffed in range or cast time to accommodate, or else the doctrinal ability with be without any merits.

Even if their price is increased without a buff, the ability will become obsolete and then it will get buffed to be desirable.

It's just not a good enough ability to justify anything higher than what it is without increasing something about it.

Doctrinal, 3CP, only volks and obers can use them, scales from squads size (and ineffective on half dead squad), 120 sec recharge time, good only for clearing buildings on decent skill lvl, never seen it wiping Russian support weapons in 1 barrage.

This ability is far from dream even for 10 muni. Considering how okw needs tons of ammo for shreck upgrades, spec ops need it even more for stg upgrades and active mark target usage on command panther in team games.

So yes, Infiltration grenades is perfectly fine.

Those grenades are definitely strong, but I am not sure if they are OP.

They take 0.375 to 2.25 seconds to throw (the big difference there is to have not all entities throw it at once, so the aim times differ a lot) and .75 seconds after the throw till the entity continues to shoot.
The MK2 as a comparison takes 0.744 seconds to throw and .25 seconds after throwing for the entity to continue swap back to it's rifle.

Damage wise each grenade deals 40 damage where the MK2 deals 80.

Scatter on those grenades is horrible - 20 angle and 5 distance scatter where the MK2 has 2 and 2.75 scatter, which is almost pinpoint accuracy.

So the major difference between the Grenade assault is that it saturates an area with weaker grenades and requires the whole squad to stop moving and shooting for up to 3 seconds. While dodging the first grenade is sometimes hard, subsequent ones should be easy to dodge (press S to stop the unit reaction, then move away). In most cases you can predict when this grenade gets thrown, hints sorted by increasing likelihood of the grenade:
1.) The squad moves closer (could be any grenade)
2.) All entities move withing range (usually a reliable sign that it's this grenade)
3.) All entities stop firing - This is a safe sign they will throw this grenade. React - moving left or right is usually the best way.

Besides that, balance wise the grenade itself is the exact same one that Assault Grenadiers throw (5 grenades, 45 munition), but it's requirements are different. Only Obersoldaten and Volks can use it and only if they have 120 seconds of "not in combat time". The timer for this starts 4 seconds after receiving / dealing damage if I recall correctly.

The fact that it delivers several weaker grenades makes it really hard to compare to others - I think it's a higher risk higher reward grenade. Increasing the cost wouldn't change it's squad wipe potential and to be honest, this grenade should not be balanced by cost, as it already has several other negative factors. That said, I don't think an increase to 15 or 20 munition would be something 'bad', but I'd rather try to work with enabling mechanics. I.e. find something besides 120 seconds out of combat to enable the grenade. Allow the a squad to throw a grenade assault for every salvage you did? Allow a squad to use a grenade assault if he used a normal grenade / ability? Something like that - I would find that far more interesting than just increasing the cost.

That is an insane exaggeration and I'm not even interested in the "no it's not" retort. If you really think they clear out garrisons that easily, please post replays.

At the northern VP in ettelbruck station there are 3 medium-sized apartments, I had a garrisoned 6 man maxim team brought down to 1 man with maybe 5% hp left, and he died right after the barrage to small arms fire from one volks squad.

10 munitions was too little even before the munition revamp of OKW. It might as well not even have a cost to it now.

Just another example of widespread bias on this board. If an allied commander was throwing hand-held carpet bombs, people would be up in arms. So far the only allied units that haven't been dubbed "overperforming" (annoying buzzword you people keep using) are dogshit units like conscripts, M-20 and the SU-76.

Vocal minority means the people who talks, but those people are still a minority considering the vast number of player who didn't talk who are also part of the community.

...

So, basically, you whine about being shouted down by the "vocal minority", even though your definition of the term applies equally well to you yourself?

I counter argumentated those points and repeated myself a few time to be sure. Not gonna do it again. So either you didn't read the post or you ignore those arguments which is said "bias". Arguments should work both ways.

Sure you "counter argumentated" but as I said, that just brings it down to two sets of contrary opinions. There's no mathematical formula by which you've shown that a 10muni cost is out of balance with a 2min out-of-combat-only cooldown. Lacking such objectivity, what we can know for certain is that good players who are known to favor all factions disagree with you, and that OKW players don't seem to choose the infiltration nades commander disproportionately often.

As for the videos, there is one expressing pretty much all the points mentionned in this thread. I never was caught off guard. I saw them comming from miles and war going to engage them (hence the smoke) but i didn't expect an instant 10MU squad wipe, so yea i guess you could say i got caught off guard.

So you weren't caught off guard, you just *chose* to eat a grenade (of any type) without moving, and because you weren't familiar with the specific grenade in question this turned out worse than you expected? That doesn't show any problem with balance, it just shows that you had something to learn about the game.

As LongJohns said, if you really think it's OP, try face rolling with it and see how far you get. What it comes down to is that lots of players disagree with you, and lots of others agree, and without seeing your specific playercard or any of your replays, there's no way for anyone to tell whether you're a good player who recognizes a real problem with the meta, or a mediocre player who just doesn't want to learn how to deal with a specific ability.

lol, lets use the term 'silent majority' and see if it catches on...

It is fact that the Okws grenades are much heavyer. I donßt klnow wy but the 25 muni USF nade is much lower than an normal volks nade I don´t know wy. Often it is rng but they are heavyer. And this Infiltrations nade should cost 40 muni

lol, lets use the term 'silent majority' and see if it catches on...

Yeah, I'm really glad I'm not the only one who laughed at that line.

Yeah, I'm really glad I'm not the only one who laughed at that line.

Funny eh? Now maths aren't an argument anymore. Things sure change quickly. Actually let's just get back on the subject at hand.

@MilkaCow
I too would like to see something more interesting than 120 seconds timer. But i also think the price should be increased or the power decreased to something more supportive than devastating. The use of this ability dosen't put any cooldown on the normal grenade, making 40munitions go a long way on a 235MP squad.

That is an insane exaggeration and I'm not even interested in the "no it's not" retort. If you really think they clear out garrisons that easily, please post replays.

Actually it's not an exaggeration at all, quite the reaction from someone who (apparently) doesn't know how the ability even functions. These grenades do completely destroy garrisons. A volley of 5 grenades in a reasonably small garrison will reliably wipe the whole squad/weapon team. This is by design. Its one of the best reasons to pick a commander w/ infiltration tactics on urban maps(Semois and Road to Kharkov come to mind), because OKW struggle to clear out buildings reliably with normal grenades (although the recent buff to garrison damage does help with this) and the ISG.

At the northern VP in ettelbruck station there are 3 medium-sized apartments, I had a garrisoned 6 man maxim team brought down to 1 man with maybe 5% hp left, and he died right after the barrage to small arms fire from one volks squad.

10 munitions was too little even before the munition revamp of OKW. It might as well not even have a cost to it now.

Just another example of widespread bias on this board. If an allied commander was throwing hand-held carpet bombs, people would be up in arms. So far the only allied units that haven't been dubbed "overperforming" (annoying buzzword you people keep using) are dogshit units like conscripts, M-20 and the SU-76.

I asked you to support with replays, I specifically stated I wasn't interested in your "yes-huh" retort. I'm even less interested in your "this one time up here this happened" example.

I'm exhausted of threads mired by a very distinct absence of logic. There are people who bring legitimate perspective to a situation and the rebuttal is often stated with little justification. Your debating point that "It might as well not even have a cost to it now" doesn't hash out your point of view nor elaborate on how the current penalties of the ability are lacking to warrant its price. I'm sure the counterstatement of "widespread bias" is a wonderful utility to pull out whenever there's a disagreement, but it produces nothing and is, quite frankly, a silly crutch.

Furthermore, your arguments tend to conclude with a very overused 'axis bias' rehearsal. If there's anything I can surmise from this tendency it is that you yourself are glaringly bias.

I asked you to support with replays, I specifically stated I wasn't interested in your "yes-huh" retort. I'm even less interested in your "this one time up here this happened" example.

Add me on steam Bled, lets test this out, I would like to show you something

Actually it's not an exaggeration at all, quite the reaction from someone who (apparently) doesn't know how the ability even functions. These grenades do completely destroy garrisons. A volley of 5 grenades in a reasonably small garrison will reliably wipe the whole squad/weapon team. This is by design. Its one of the best reasons to pick a commander w/ infiltration tactics on urban maps(Semois and Road to Kharkov come to mind), because OKW struggle to clear out buildings reliably with normal grenades (although the recent buff to garrison damage does help with this) and the ISG.

What's "reasonably small"?

This is an incredibly subjective detail to base your analysis on. Obviously there's nothing better than to lob a grenade into a hut chocked full of a 6 man unit team, but we're not discussing extreme situations. We're discussing the merits of the ability versus the penalties of its use.

I'm quite confident I've used this ability, and seen this ability used enough to judge its garrison clearing ability, and I wouldn't consider it the 'building cleaner' that it is currently being suggested.

However, lets assume you're right, just for the sake of debate. Lets say that this grenade absolutely obliterates any unit in any garrison. So what? A doctrinal ability that specializes in cleaning out a building on a 120 out of combat cool down with shorter range and a longer cast time that is obvious to anyone paying attention? Unless I'm just not watching in any fashion, you will never catch me with Infiltration Tactics. It's also a safe assumption that anything you're garrisoning at 3CP is a suppression unit. This ability isn't even a factor in the early game.

Just another example of widespread bias on this board. If an allied commander was throwing hand-held carpet bombs, people would be up in arms. So far the only allied units that haven't been dubbed "overperforming" (annoying buzzword you people keep using) are dogshit units like conscripts, M-20 and the SU-76.

Well i hate to say it but when the katyusha dropped it's AP rockets for HE, the forum bursted into flame. It didn't take any argumentation to have it nerf hammered. While on the other hand i saw a really good and calm argumentation on why Russians have an horrible tier system, the topic hardly took off.

One side has to provide some pretty good evidence while on the on other one a simple whine thread seems to suffice at the slightess "overperforming" unit, even if this unit is really good at a single thing.

But can we put that aside and go back to the subject please?

Making this ability fun for both parties? Like dropping the cooldown for something else?

1 minute of out combat + price increase to maybe 20/25MU + less damage over the AOE? or an even smaller cooldown. Something along those lines. But we have to keep in mind that this ability can make the cheap good at long range volks become lethal close range units.

Edit: the CP cost could probably be brought to 1 or 2 depending on the final package.

the first time i used them i thought i couldn't believe they were 10 munis. still feel the same now. this is the only underpriced thing the germans have, knew this thread would appear.

These grenades do completely destroy garrisons. A volley of 5 grenades in a reasonably small garrison will reliably wipe the whole squad/weapon team. This is by design. Its one of the best reasons to pick a commander w/ infiltration tactics on urban maps

Most useful information in the thread so far, and I'm highly ashamed I had to read about in on the forums. I'm going to try this next time I get one of those maps as OKW.

Funny eh? Now maths aren't an argument anymore. Things sure change quickly. Actually let's just get back on the subject at hand.

Speaking as someone with a graduate degree in the field I can assure you that maths haven't graced a single line of this thread, and I'm long accustomed to poseurs from other disciplines trying to co-opt its authority. Try again.





Bled, I don't think FestiveLongJohns is saying Infil Nades are OP; he pointed out its flaws and explained how to deal with it earlier in the thread. Now he's just giving tips on what they *are* good for.

1 minute of out combat + price increase to maybe 20/25MU + less damage over the AOE? or an even smaller cooldown. Something along those lines. But we have to keep in mind that this ability can make the cheap good at long range volks become lethal close range units.

They only become lethal at close range if you fail to dodge the grenade. All of your tests and your video showing how effective the grenades were is only because you stood right in the middle and let them hit you. You are given ample warning and time to dodge these grenades, and you yourself stated you were aware that they were throwing them but chose to ride them out. You talked earlier about how the models crawl around after the first explosion preventing you from dodging, but at that point you have already failed to dodge it.

It is fine for an ability to be powerful as long as it is easy to see and respond to, it effectively nullifies the abilities strength.

What's "reasonably small"?

This is an incredibly subjective detail to base your analysis on. Obviously there's nothing better than to lob a grenade into a hut chocked full of a 6 man unit team, but we're not discussing extreme situations. We're discussing the merits of the ability versus the penalties of its use.

I'm quite confident I've used this ability, and seen this ability used enough to judge its garrison clearing ability, and I wouldn't consider it the 'building cleaner' that it is currently being suggested.

However, lets assume you're right, just for the sake of debate. Lets say that this grenade absolutely obliterates any unit in any garrison. So what? A doctrinal ability that specializes in cleaning out a building on a 120 out of combat cool down with shorter range and a longer cast time that is obvious to anyone paying attention? Unless I'm just not watching in any fashion, you will never catch me with Infiltration Tactics. It's also a safe assumption that anything you're garrisoning at 3CP is a suppression unit. This ability isn't even a factor in the early game.

I wasn't drawing any conclusions, just pointing out the fact that it is indeed a great garrison clear. Everything is subjective when being discussed out of the context of the game on the forums. I don't really feel like posting a replay, I'd rather you add me on steam and I can clear you out of houses with them in person

They only become lethal at close range if you fail to dodge the grenade. All of your tests and your video showing how effective the grenades were is only because you stood right in the middle and let them hit you. You are given ample warning and time to dodge these grenades, and you yourself stated you were aware that they were throwing them but chose to ride them out. You talked earlier about how the models crawl around after the first explosion preventing you from dodging, but at that point you have already failed to dodge it.

It is fine for an ability to be powerful as long as it is easy to see and respond to, it effectively nullifies the abilities strength.

The moments the signs show up and the first detonation is at worst only sligthly longer than a normal grenade from tests. If MilkaCow is right in his numbers, the first explosion should actually be faster than a normal grenade. Making the "Easy to dodge compared to other grenades" null.

I never said i knew they were going to wipe me at such a close range trough a smoke. I said i knew they were there.

In the end, their pros pretty much nullify their cons. And turns the long range and cheap volks into deadly close range units.

The moments the signs show up and the first detonation is at worst only sligthly longer than a normal grenade from tests. If MilkaCow is right in his numbers, the first explosion should actually be faster than a normal grenade. Making the "Easy to dodge compared to other grenades" null.

I never said i knew they were going to wipe me at such a close range trough a smoke. I said i knew they were there.

In the end, their pros pretty much nullify their cons. And turns the long range and cheap volks into deadly close range units.

You should be expecting these grenades well before you get into an engagement. Like I said earlier, it's not about reaction time, it's about anticipation. Engaging 3 volks with infiltration grenades is risky, even with a shocks squad. That being said, had you stayed on the move and chucked your own grenade at the 2 volks squads that were bunched and cleared the closer squad with your shocks you might have even still won that engagement. The issue here isn't the grenades, its how you chose to engage.