Soviets - A core faction discussion

All of this talk about Shocktroops supports my closing thoughts concerning Soviet faction design.

• 6 commanders have Shocktroops.
  
• Out of those 6 commanders 3 have viable late game armor (if you count KV1).
  
• Your likelihood of encountering these 2 commands is greater than encountering a commander like Urban Defense.
  
• This is predictable game play.
  

My closing thoughts are that as of now the Soviet's are forced to select commanders based on weak non-doctrinal units. Addressing some of the issues in the core factions design would go a long way in breaking the current meta of predictable commander selection.

All of this talk about Shocktroops supports my closing thoughts concerning Soviet faction design.

• 6 commanders have Shocktroops.
  
• Out of those 6 commanders 3 have viable late game armor (if you count KV1).
  
• Your likelihood of encountering these 2 commands is greater than encountering a commander like Urban Defense.
  
• This is predictable game play.
  

I'd support this as well, in the interest of not only the Soviets but the German factions- just about everyone loads up Guards Motor and Shock Rifle, with the last slot filled by ISU/Lend Lease/Counterattack/some doctrine with ppsh and elite inf. What I'd give to fight a FHQ, or Urban Defense, or even Partisans without having the Soviet player be gimped at the same time.

Reference

Yea, there was some talk about starting with a Volksgrenadier instead of a Sturmpio, but that would require some additional changes. Otherwise the Oberkommando would have no chance to win any fights vs USF early since Riflemen have a (comparably) shorter build time. At 280MP it should be 28 seconds, yet it's 25 seconds. This may not sound like a major issue, but with one Riflemen easily beating a Volks and 40 second buildtime on the Sturmpios it is.
Right now it takes 23 seconds to field a Volks and a Sturmpio, the opponent has a Rear Echelon and a Riflemen at 25. Switching the starting units it would take 40 seconds.

That's why I wouldn't switch them unless the build times for some units get changed. This means, it's not such a simple change anymore, but actually needs quite some testing.

Soviet needs a slight faction redesign, specially T1 units and T70/T36. Against OKW I'm always forced to build maxims and choose always one of the two viable commanders con Shocks.

Btw, all soviet T2 gameplay ends the very moment a OKW player gets a Stuka. Neither with a halftrack reinforcing them can you keep alive your support weapons.

Soviet meta currently revolves around a stupid maxim spam followed by a brainless race towards T34 spam. Probably is effective, as plenty of OKW players are complaining of, but is boring as hell for the soviet player to play too.

Soviet meta currently revolves around a stupid maxim spam followed by a brainless race towards T34 spam. Probably is effective, as plenty of OKW players are complaining of, but is boring as hell for the soviet player to play too.

I've got something to make it more exotic. T1 and T2. Add a sniper in there. Whoop whoop.

I've got something to make it more exotic. T1 and T2. Add a sniper in there. Whoop whoop.

If that really works let me know the build order (which one first, T1 or T2) and which commanders do you use. I suppose it should be one with T34/85 because I don't know how to stay alive just with ZiS until IS2 or ISU arrives.

Most of the Tanks/armored vehicles were used for training and reserve forces. Very limited number being used in actual combat.

Don't know how exactly could you make Land Lease faction, most of land lease equipment is already in default Soviet tier buildings. (most of the trucks, Katyusha truck for example, etc)

Other than that I like your idea

I did a lend lease doctrine a while ago, it was very different to what we actually got:

http://www.coh2.org/topic/12396/new-doctrine--lend-lease

I'd support this as well, in the interest of not only the Soviets but the German factions- just about everyone loads up Guards Motor and Shock Rifle, with the last slot filled by ISU/Lend Lease/Counterattack/some doctrine with ppsh and elite inf. What I'd give to fight a FHQ, or Urban Defense, or even Partisans without having the Soviet player be gimped at the same time.

People are allowed to play game modes other than 1v1


Not every unit and every doctrine is equally good across all maps and all game sizes

People are allowed to play game modes other than 1v1


Not every unit and every doctrine is equally good across all maps and all game sizes

Besides gimmicky FHQ, the rest plain suck.

People are allowed to play game modes other than 1v1


Not every unit and every doctrine is equally good across all maps and all game sizes

I play a lot of 2V2 and it's the same problem. Everyone has the ISU doctrine, the rest is a mix between counterattack, Guards motor, and IS-2, with sometimes Advanced Warfare. And in practice almost every game you either take the IS-2 or ISU, or both if double Soviets. All the other doctrines I barely see at all because they grant no late game power or no Shock troops. And unless you spam the hell out of Maxims, you basically need Shocks to stand a chance against a decent OKW player. I don't think I've even seen a Guards squad since WFA hit, people get the doctrine for the T-34/85.

And yes, I would be in favor of the 2nd Soviet building in a tier to cost less. So if you built T3, T4 costs, say, 80 fuel instead of a whooping 120. It's still an investment, but at least you aren't forced to get only 2 buildings for the whole game.

Yea the boring gameplay is a terrible side effect of one side being so weak. Some people want more nerf to maxim and if relic does that, I don't know what people are going to use, storm pio beats every thing else 1:1. Maxim is pretty weak already to me, but I think all the machine guns are pretty weak right now.

I don't want to get to off topic but the DHSK is a pretty good indicator as to how Relic can mess up the Maxim. Very low suppression, very high set up time, narrow arc.

Besides gimmicky FHQ, the rest plain suck.

NKVD - Nothing with recon totally sucks

Radio Intercept no one cared about but suddenly became OP when Advanced Warfare got it

Propoganda is a lot better on larger maps, and sometimes the ability to force a retreat is better than damage


Conscript Support
- Early to mid Game advantage only
Seems to me this is intended for 1v1 only

Armoured Assault
Late game power, but the T34/85 and IS2 too close now

Reserves
There was a point when Irregulars were almost the best soviet Infantry
Not popular now though

Urban Defence
As noted very good on closely stacked Urban maps (Angermunda, Ettenbruck)

Partisans
A lot of fun in the right hands and have the ability to tip battles your own forces are nowhere near

Soviet Industry
Popular still, but hard to get right now

Defensive Commander
Outside high starting resource starts on Urban Maps this is pretty rubbish


Thing is though, the bar for what is useful has been raised


In a team of 4 Sov you could pick one of the niche commanders, now there is the US

1) A lot of the Sov Commander Meta is covering the holes in the US Structure (late game tanks)
And that is much more important than getting a fringe commander especially when you will only have 2 Sov players on average in a 4v4


2) Having the US is better than a niche Sov commander and better also at certain things (if I want to ConSpam I can take a doctrine that supports that, or I can just play US and RifleSpam - which is better)

I'm quite sure there's a lot of potential in Urban Defense and Defensive vs OKW mechanized HQ openers, since the small AT gun is sufficient to deal with all the light vehicles, the 120mm is very strong against forward trucks, and the FHQ has some niche applications... but why would I bother when shocks -> call in tanks or guard motor is so strong anyway?

I'm quite sure there's a lot of potential in Urban Defense and Defensive vs OKW mechanized HQ openers, since the small AT gun is sufficient to deal with all the light vehicles, the 120mm is very strong against forward trucks, and the FHQ has some niche applications... but why would I bother when shocks -> call in tanks or guard motor is so strong anyway?

But instead of going for these doctrines, you could just pick a Guard doctrine and get a squad that does both the same AT as the light atgun, plus deals with infantry decently, scales better and is far more mobile, for 160MP more. And then you have a bunch of other decent abilities from your commander too, instead of doucheguns and tank traps.

There's nothing of particular interest in T1 except snipers, so being able to skip building T2 thanks to having a bunch of expensive replacement units taking up your commander skill slots is not really a worthwhile trade.

FHQ is a bit better (on the maps that have cutoffs with nearby buildings, anyway), but is also a doctrine which is basically saying "I win in 10 minutes or I lose the game".

In other news I have an update about this point.

T1
M3 Scout Car This unit was nerfed as expected. How the nerf was conducted leaves a lot to be desired. The M3 has now developed a trait I'd consider immersion breaking. When attempting to reverse from a stand still the M3 will lurch forward. I'm assuming this was done to give the Axis an opportunity to Faust it but it seems really silly. You are either reversing or you are not.

It would appear this is a global issue and other users have identified it on the official forums.

http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/coh-2-balance-feedback/76388-reverse-causing-forward-movement-intentional

how are irregulars? I played with them last night for the first time, I'm unsure of them. What is their damage profile like? I assume they are long range units? Also what state is hit the dirt in? I havent seen anyone use it since beta. Maybe if they change it to give increased accuracy at longer ranges? could give the soviets a more defensive long range option.

Seems to be three point turns from the look which were in the past disabled for light vehicles. I'm not sure if they got re-enabled or what it is. Definitely quite annoying.

NKVD - Nothing with recon totally sucks

Radio Intercept no one cared about but suddenly became OP when Advanced Warfare got it

Propoganda is a lot better on larger maps, and sometimes the ability to force a retreat is better than damage


Conscript Support
- Early to mid Game advantage only
Seems to me this is intended for 1v1 only

Armoured Assault
Late game power, but the T34/85 and IS2 too close now

Reserves
There was a point when Irregulars were almost the best soviet Infantry
Not popular now though

Urban Defence
As noted very good on closely stacked Urban maps (Angermunda, Ettenbruck)

Partisans
A lot of fun in the right hands and have the ability to tip battles your own forces are nowhere near

Soviet Industry
Popular still, but hard to get right now

Defensive Commander
Outside high starting resource starts on Urban Maps this is pretty rubbish


Thing is though, the bar for what is useful has been raised


In a team of 4 Sov you could pick one of the niche commanders, now there is the US

1) A lot of the Sov Commander Meta is covering the holes in the US Structure (late game tanks)
And that is much more important than getting a fringe commander especially when you will only have 2 Sov players on average in a 4v4


2) Having the US is better than a niche Sov commander and better also at certain things (if I want to ConSpam I can take a doctrine that supports that, or I can just play US and RifleSpam - which is better)

-Armored assault: i´m actually using it on 2v2. T1 + T2 into callins. It let me knows when to tech T2, when to be aware of raketenwerfer, pak or 222 when using M3.

-As i said, Urban has SOME uses. Eventhough is like get a huge early advantage or lose the game on the long run.

-NKVD: the doctrine still sucks because everything on the commander is present on others which perform better the job

-Con support: same as before.

-Irregulars + Partisans: gimmickys to have fun but won´t won you games.

i still feel the best way to play against okw and ostheer in 2v2 is cons + maxim + guards/zis/120mm then waiting out for t34/85.

it seems to be the most versatile strategy. as it covers most potential problems encountered early to mid.

120mm for indirect fire. maxim/cons to hold the line and guards for some much needed long range dps. zis for AT since okw dont really have medium tanks, a simple ZiS is usually enough with AT nades and ptrs+button.

if played right, its difficult for them to push through with only infantry. so expect stukas and obersoldatens.