Soviets - A core faction discussion

My comments in green.

Though the OP is long, its just a subjective description of units, in a vacuum, that ends with just a few actual suggested changes.

That is for a couple reasons. Massive changes lead to bad balancing. The changes I have proposed are modest. They are modest because in my opinion, the core faction just requires some small changes to be competitive.

1) This has been discussed since launch. Among the reasons why this is not possible, are that Cons are a 6man unit and what that equates to in durability, especially mid-lategame, as well as their native Merge and Oorah.

Since launch being the key word. Previous to WFA I would say there was no issue. Since WFA this view needs to be changed. Merging and Oorah provide little value when facing late game Axis infantry.

2) Penals are indeed a persistant "squished" unit that also has been a point of discussion since launch. Even tier cost changes did not result in the entry of this unit to meta. Personally, Id suggest around a G43 equivalent profile with mid-long range impetus (and perhaps less moving accuracy)(also as mitigated towards smaller model count units) as native, and a full spectrum of upgrade options to choose 1 from, as 1) 2xPTSR 2) 2xDPs (which btw need buffing) 3) Flamer+full PPSHs. This way Penals can form a flexible non-callin option alongside Guard/Shock Commanders AND non- infantry callin Commanders, to fill in the "gap". Im ok with them keeping Satchel in all variants.

This is a pretty cool idea. I like it.

3) Im not sure why you include this. I suppose perhaps T70 could use a slightly (and your change is quite small) earlier window vs OKW as a subsequent interbalance change since WFA launch. Perhaps it the cost decrease was met with an equally small reduction in AI efficacy so as to make it earlier vs OKW, but not raise the old AI spectre vs Ost?

It just comes in too late compared to the Luch. The OKW are swimming in AT options which makes the T70 a high risk unit. A small fuel decrease would be beneficial for A) timing B) increasing the difference between the T34/76 C) it's fragile.

4)SU76 is definately a unit I would like to see more discussion on.

I suppose that something is going to have to the WORST unit in the game. Maybe this is the one?

5)Can you elaborate on why SU85 should be buffed universally

A series of balacing patches has reduced the effivitiness of this unit. While it may work, does it work well in it's role? The universal response is that in game modes other than 1v1 the SU85 is a bad choice. As to why it should be buffed there are two primary reasons A) the introduction of additional threats in the OKW army. I used the Puma as an example. B) Blitz has been re-introduced. If this unit is supposed to be a dedicated A/T platform it should perform better than a T34/76 or any series of Soviet call in medium tanks. It does not. It lacks A) mobility, B) damage, and C) survivability. The risks of this unit, in which there are a lot, is not worth the reward, in which there are little.


I sincerely wish you would take time, and make it a point, to play more Axis.

I lead a coh2 clan of nearly 30 members. The vast majority of my member base is now on "vacation mode" and playing as Axis. This includes me. I love playing as OKW and using their super units. As of this posting we are able to roll a King Tiger at 14 minutes without the use of LWS drops.

Why not implement something that is already in the game?

I remember the campaign had units called Frontowiki squads. They are basically buffed cons with ppsh and ai nades.

My suggestion would be to give cons the option to upgrade to these Frontowiki squads once they reach vet 3. For a small manpower and munitions price + t3 or t4 researched .

By this the Soviet faction manage to scale their cons well into the late game. It would support combined arms because you'd still need 1-2 cons squads for at nades and sandbags.

And fanboys would get their battle hardened core infantry that has a better name than conscripts.

The Soviets still need the option to have viable access to all of their tier in a game, they're the only faction that don't because of broken design

I've updated my original post with two new sections. Make sure to revisit the OP if you haven't.

Why not implement something that is already in the game?

I remember the campaign had units called Frontowiki squads. They are basically buffed cons with ppsh and ai nades.

My suggestion would be to give cons the option to upgrade to these Frontowiki squads once they reach vet 3. For a small manpower and munitions price + t3 or t4 researched .

By this the Soviet faction manage to scale their cons well into the late game. It would support combined arms because you'd still need 1-2 cons squads for at nades and sandbags.

And fanboys would get their battle hardened core infantry that has a better name than conscripts.

I think this idea is extremely interesting. Upgrading a unit to become something else or have a slightly different role. If you upgrade the 221, it becomes a 222. Im not sure about a vet requirement, but it would be nice if cons can do more and fight better once you get t3 or t4 (asides of the lack of flexibility within t3 or t4 compared to other things). At this point in the game, PPSH's being only doctrinal is trivial.

As for the Soviet faction, i have been on an Axis/slightly American vacation for 4 months now. They are too lacking in originality and flavor compared to WFA factions.

The idea of upgrading a unit once it vets to level 3 is very interesting.

I'd really like to see this.

@Albus
Cons vs Volks can be tied or even be more easy for cons to win an engagement just in the very early game, but once Volks gets veterancy they scale much better than cons.
The main issue with cons is that they don't scale at all past the first 10 minutes, and all the manpower and fuel invested in them goes to the drain.

Molo is not useful once your enemy is blobbing and he doesn't care about cover anymore. And ATnade isn't useful against nothing above a light tank, and you usually lose half the squad trying to throw it.

Volks instead are a reliable AI/AT unit mid and late game.
Current conscript meta uses them like ostruppen, as just meatshields to outcap your enemy and tech faster.
Currently, the main and only soviet infantry are Shocks or Guards.

The idea of upgrading a unit once it vets to level 3 is very interesting.

I'd really like to see this.

@Albus
Cons vs Volks can be tied or even be more easy for cons to win an engagement just in the very early game, but once Volks gets veterancy they scale much better than cons.
The main issue with cons is that they don't scale at all past the first 10 minutes, and all the manpower and fuel invested in them goes to the drain.

Molo is not useful once your enemy is blobbing and he doesn't care about cover anymore. And ATnade isn't useful against nothing above a light tank, and you usually lose half the squad trying to throw it.

Volks instead are a reliable AI/AT unit mid and late game.
Current conscript meta uses them like ostruppen, as just meatshields to outcap your enemy and tech faster.
Currently, the main and only soviet infantry are Shocks or Guards.

'Volks instead are a reliable AI unit mid and late game.'

The rest is ok but this is just wrong, volks are not reliable AI mid-late game unless you choose a doctrine with infiltration grenades. If you don't you'll be relying on other things (and the only other inf options have very high reinforcement cost) for AI power against vetted squads, because volks just won't cut it. It would be nice if they also got some kind of vet 3/4/5 upgrade such as lmg, smg, g43 etc, something to improve AI dps.

By reliable I say that they do its job supported by Sturms and some elite infantry unit.

I doubt you feel that you wasted manpower in them.

In plenty of games I stop reinforcing conscripts once reached midgame, and if they aren't vetted, I just merge them in another squads. That is what I refer when I'm saying that they are not reliable.

Depends, if you are playing on the defensive, you can stick them behind cover and they are ok. However trying to attack with them is awful and they are pretty bad for that mostly.

If they didn't have schreks I would definitely feel I wasted MP in them. I very rarely ever have more than 3 at a time anyway. 3 is a good number I think, mostly to upgrade for schreks.

They're basically there just to make up the numbers, would be nice if they could have some kind of upgrade to scale AI late-game, even at the opportunity cost of upgrading to schreks.

Anyway this is too OT for this thread I guess.

The role of volks is clearly not to shred infantry. They do fine for the task they are designed for. 3 volks squads are an AT threat every player has to fear. Plus their grenades hold the potential to wipe every infantry.

Give them ai upgrades and I predict you will face endless volks blobs.

Okw has several ai options, they don't need ai volks.

I wish the animation for throwing the Molotov was faster

The role of volks is clearly not to shred infantry. They do fine for the task they are designed for. 3 volks squads are an AT threat every player has to fear. Plus their grenades hold the potential to wipe every infantry.

Give them ai upgrades and I predict you will face endless volks blobs.

Okw has several ai options, they don't need ai volks.

It would be probably vet 3/4/5 upgrade, which would be hard to blob until very very late game.

Actually not volks vet up really fast when they hit vehicles with their shrecks

Volks have vet 5, a vet that allows them to passively self heal, and a panzerschreck upgrade. A squad with a panzerschreck is worth keeping around, and they vet crazy fast when the panzerschreck hits a vehicle. There is also a big difference between a vet 0 and a vet 5 volks' squad in terms of accuracy and durability. For a Soviet player, and as the enemy, there seems to be no difference between a vet 0 and a vet 3 conscript squad other than the latter giving me XP when killing it.

It is not only the actual squad, but its role within the faction. So, both are the cannon fodder of their faction. A volks with a panzerschreck is worth keeping around, especially one at vet 5. What is the incentive to keep using conscripts, other than capping infantry? If you arent satisfied with the AI of volks, then you have an alternative. Sturmpioneers (best unit on earth, IMO), and later, Obersoldaten. Depending on the commander, you may have either Panzerfusiliers, Fallshirmjagers, and Jager Light Infantry. So when conscripts are failing (which they will always do, if you actually bothered fielding them), you have T1 Penals (IF you went T1, and if you went with Penals, you probably skipped making conscripts altogether other than keeping one for the AT nade, since Penals are only slightly better Cons, which is also a terrible design). Then you have several commander with either Shocks or Guards. Shocks, being only effective at very close range. Guards, being weighed down by the only faction infantry held AT - the super crappy PTRS, with DP's being the only weapon making it somewhat able to go against other infantry that do no require munitions for AI prowess.

So volks have alternatives, and Soviets are stuck with cons (or duplicate Penals, who have a very good suggestion for change made by Cannonade). That is why I hate Soviet faction design, simply because it is designed around cheese strats and every other unit being either crappy in design, or terribly organized in the tiering system. Cheese strats are not fun to play as, or against. Compared to new OKW factions, i would think the Soviet faction design is very half-assed and deserves many big changes. Ostheer isnt too much better, but at least grens are viable, and stock (but still get stomped by Americans).

I would say anyone asking more of Volksgrenadiers is rather spoiled with other Axis units. Soviets have only two types of units. Cheese units, and trash units that are never made and are not worth the trouble managing. The Soviet units that are complained about are the only ones fielded.

Also, many vanilla faction vet bonuses absolutely suck, and many vanilla faction vet abilities suck (well, the same useless ones on many units).

I would like to see:

1. conscripts that can be upgraded with a couple of PPSH's or 1 DP LMG
2. Perhaps move IS-2 to non doctrinal unit and stick it in T4 or a new building and/or
3. Give Soviets a late game tank destroyer that is non doctrinal like the SU-100
4. If thee things don't happen at least make T4 cheaper

please stop suggesting ppshes for conscripts, unless the current meta changes to a point where short range troopers can get into lethal range without losing half the squads, ppsh for conscripts is worthless.

conscripts late game lacks ranged firepower to contend with german infantry, that is a fact.

the reason for volksspam is because they are tough with schrecks and comes with real nades with twice the accuracy compared to conscripts at long range and matching dps where conscripts are supposed to shine at mid and close range. this makes them solid infantry when they can win ranged fights and if they are outnumbered, a grenade would be sufficient to thin down the numbers.

again, superior infantry. having the same reliance on elite infantry for real AI work, discounting the fact that sturmpios is superb, falls, obers shits on guards/shocks. actually, obers shits on everything, falls are at least tactical where you pop them out to deal with support teams. guards/shocks cannot match well as elite infantry so it goes into a spiral of infantry inferiority, might as well get snipers/tanks to do it all.

my b, was only thinking about ways to give conscripts more options

Another problem with buffing Cons, in almost anyway, whether with stats or upgrades, is it just ends up further marginalising Penals.

Another problem with buffing Cons, in almost anyway, whether with stats or upgrades, (disregarding faction infantry core units for the moment) is it just ends up further marginalising Penals.

There's like 3 or 4 people actually playing this game who still try to use penals, I'm pretty sure they can't be marginalized any further.

Well yes, they can. And it would do just that.

Buff Cons to fill the gap that Penals should be filling, and it does exactly that.

Im a firm proponent for changing Penals so they fill in the slack that Cons cant.

Just buffing Cons serves no purpose, when the real issue is Penals not fulfilling their role in the roster.