Walking Stuka

I dont know about anyone else here, but Relic releasing these seems to show that they are really confident in keeping units the way they were designed.
http://blogs.companyofheroes.com/2014/07/15/coh2-the-western-front-armies-unit-profile-sdkfz-251-stuka-zu-fus-half-track/

The best any complaint can get is a cooldown increase, a price increase, a damage decrease... and thats its since Stuka zu Fuss has high enough saturation in its line to laugh at the suggestions to increase scatter.

I dont see any big changes happening to it anytime soon. Im expecting improvements to the pak howitzer and adjustments for Soviets to reduce their monotone gameplay (I am also a maxim spammer, but seriously, every other option just sucks).

100 fuel is a gamble though. Where the stuka zu fuss is most effective before real armor, id rather get a puma (but i always get the 251/17 flak) to counter an m15 or an early t34. The stuka's line barrage is largely inneffective to wide blobs, or simply two infantry squads standing side by side. Usually infantry tends to trail each other, so somehow this attack is effective. Increasing scatter and randomizing rocket drop pssh, saturation is high enough to negate that and still demolish infantry. Unless you remove it, the stuka zu fuss will always wipe infantry. It doesnt have crappy katyusha or panzerwerfer rockets with 1 AoE.

Edit: Excuse me, scatter can be adjusted so damage is spread out evenly so full health squads dont get wiped when they are unluckily spread out and fully hit, but either way, a stuka zu fuss bombing strike will always kill infantry in its strike, still wiping damaged, perhaps retreating units in its path. From reading the complaint suggestions, i dont think it would be a satisfactory nerf, anyways.

Well I really don't understand why some people think it's normal to play one faction with a low risk (low punishment for unit loss, not so micro-demanding) as soviets and still require nerfs for a faction with such high risks as OKW (the most punishing for unit losses and micro demanding).
I mean it's so easy to observe the behavior of OKW faction in 1v1 2v2 or 3v3. Just try to play 2v2 or 3v3 exclusively as OKW (with no Ostheer aid). You will see how difficult is to survive even if you manage to build wurframen or sturmtiger or whatever. In 1v1 it may appear more powerfull but lose your jagdpanzer or two infantry squads and is GG I tellya.

If OKW units are nerfed to normal standard then income must be normal as well.

Yes:
- nerf walking stuka;
- nerf sturmpios;
- etc

And give OKW back its normal fuel income + ability to build caches.

Agree?

I think this is the only solution because to manny people are missing the real picture and the unique feature of this army. This army needs to have UBERunits because this is the only chance it got, as spaming is the only chance Soviets have in early game. This is a verry riscky approach for okw players because EVERY LOST UNIT can cost them the game. Can't you see this?! It's not Soviet or American case! People want to transform OKW into a fuel starved Ostheer. How much flawless do you want your victories against OKW to be?
Isn't enough that playing OKW is the most challenging from all factions?
Isn't enough that they can barely build vehicles?
How would you stop a maxim wall? Or a zis+maxim wall? With infantry, right?! The wurframen is a punishing weapon for blobing (no matter if we are talking about maxim or infantry blobs). There is absolutely no reliable range weapon at the Axis side. Howitzers do shit (german howitzers, russian ones are fine!), Pzwerfers do shit. Ok, is the Axis allowed to have something to work with?
Could you stop whining about how OP OKW units are? They are supposed to be this way. DEAL WITH IT.

i really hate to use this argument, but it seems that it is hard to get it across. people playing at my level, are different from people playing at your level. they are going to be more capable and your general rank 2000 dude who is using okw for the 5th time.

these people are ranked 40-100, easily and know how the okw work, inside and how. they know their strengths and weaknesses and they know how to engage in combat that is different from the usual A+move. i can deal with sturmpios, no problem. i can deal with volks spam, jadgpanzers or jadgtigers, i have my tactics and ways.

but it is things like obersoldaten and walking stukas are pushing it. these units require tanks to counter them and force soviets into a 1 trick pony play style and they just need to guard these units religiously from tanks and they just rape everything in sight. these units do not have soft counters, tactics do not work against these guys, its either overwhelming firepower or you need to retreat.

just plop an obersoldaten in cover screened by schrecked volks, tanks and infantry have problems engaging them. if every combat is a simple A+move like that and the soviet must cede ground for every engagement. the only thing that counter a combination like that is simply overwhelming firepower, the isu152. anything else is just going to take massive casualties.

also, US and soviets do not rake in +500mp, losing squads hurt just as much as it does for okw. last time i checked, soviets and US dont get squad replacements for losing squads, it hurts just as bad. also last time i checked, volks are 240mp while rifles are 280 and conscripts are 240. a squad wipe on any of these squads are going to hurt just as bad.

lastly, like i fucking said, watch the bloody replay and tell me if i blobbed or that stuka is just a surgical strike that wipes squad every 1.5mins. stop fucking assuming that i blobbed.

i really hate to use this argument, but it seems that it is hard to get it across. people playing at my level, are different from people playing at your level. they are going to be more capable and your general rank 2000 dude who is using okw for the 5th time.

these people are ranked 40-100, easily and know how the okw work, inside and how. they know their strengths and weaknesses and they know how to engage in combat that is different from the usual A+move. i can deal with sturmpios, no problem. i can deal with volks spam, jadgpanzers or jadgtigers, i have my tactics and ways.

but it is things like obersoldaten and walking stukas are pushing it. these units require tanks to counter them and force soviets into a 1 trick pony play style and they just need to guard these units religiously from tanks and they just rape everything in sight. these units do not have soft counters, tactics do not work against these guys, its either overwhelming firepower or you need to retreat.

just plop an obersoldaten in cover screened by schrecked volks, tanks and infantry have problems engaging them. if every combat is a simple A+move like that and the soviet must cede ground for every engagement. the only thing that counter a combination like that is simply overwhelming firepower, the isu152. anything else is just going to take massive casualties.

also, US and soviets do not rake in +500mp, losing squads hurt just as much as it does for okw. last time i checked, soviets and US dont get squad replacements for losing squads, it hurts just as bad. also last time i checked, volks are 240mp while rifles are 280 and conscripts are 240. a squad wipe on any of these squads are going to hurt just as bad.

lastly, like i fucking said, watch the bloody replay and tell me if i blobbed or that stuka is just a surgical strike that wipes squad every 1.5mins. stop fucking assuming that i blobbed.

1. Nobody assumed you did anything. It was a general statement;
2. Well, I really hate to use this argument, but it seems I have to: Your 40-100 ranked players are the MINORITY of people playing this game. And even so, I really believe that in a game of 1v1 between your level 40 players the one who will have to be more carefull and concentrated is the OKW player.
3. You are arguing that obersoldaten force you to build tanks because you don't have any counter. As if building tanks for allied factions would be such a problem!
4. Saying that losing units as OKW is the same as losing units as soviets lowers you to place 10.000 in the ladder, I'm sorry.
4. Obersoldaten are no better than shocks. The difference is the distance from which they are most effective but hey, a shock squad has 6 fools. I don't understand why someone will consider obersoldaten OP but still thinking shocks are fine.
5. The only thing wurframen is guaranteed to whipe, are static positions of maxims and ZIs guns. If you are not deaf, you can even avoid a wurframen with your blob.
6. The fact that your opponent knows what to do with a wurframen, doesn't mean that unit is OP.

As I said: Deal with it.

please elaborate. what do you mean by access to every tier, i really dont get it.

overperforming in what sense?

if you mean crappy conscripts scaling, penals that does not provide any value over conscripts, AT guns being the only real non doctrinal anti tank unit yet have only half the dps of paks, su85 comes late and is clumsy to use while being dedicated AT, t34/76 and 85 has no utility skills and escape mechanism despite being heavily dependent on rear shots. guardsmen are evenly matched by upgraded grenadiers and outmatched by all other elite infantry like obersoldaten and fallsshirmjagers despite a hefty upgrade cost and a premium mp cost.

i have no idea what a maxim has to do here either, someone pulls shit out of their ass and decides to derail the thread i suppose, still some of us gave constructive solutions to his woes.

Of course I can elaborate.
By game design decision Soviets have access to only two tiers. All the balance in 1v1 revolves around this. In 2v2 and more you can overcome this by co operation and have access to whole Soviet arsenal. In that regards Soviets are over performing in team games. Half of the topics on this forum is talking about issues with Soviet balance in team games. Scout cars are very potent opening but this can be offset later as there will be no ZiS and Maxims later. In team games that's not the case as you can have scout car opening backed up by Weapon support teams.

Stuka is the same as in larger games there is larger concentration of infantry and therefore every salvo can be far more potent. In 1v1 the cost of getting one allows you to work around it to your advantage as this is 100 fuel that didn't go into armour.

So as I said before: Lets not compromise 1v1 balance due to team games disproportions.

lastly, like i fucking said, watch the bloody replay and tell me if i blobbed or that stuka is just a surgical strike that wipes squad every 1.5mins. stop fucking assuming that i blobbed.

did watch it.

i wont put time stamps here, but rather assign numbers to the barrages.

first barrage (around 10-11 min): instant retreat the moment it was fired. if the okw player actually laid his rockets properly down on the retreat path it would have been way worse. i mentioned this before. autoretreating 3-4 units makes it quite easy for the barrage to hit something. as does a priest firing at the base building after a full retreat...

second: you know theres a stuka on the field. you know when its last barrage was fired. why stick to buildings? especially two so close together.im not saying to abandon all buildings forever, but when barrage is off CD you should be very careful

third: 3 models lost. lucky mortar shell killing the remaining 3 maxim crewmen

fourth: minor losses altough the shocks are right in the center of the barrage

fifth: total miss

sixth: game over. killing some pinned shocks. doesnt really count

so all in all that stuka scored 26 kills (not counting those shocks at the end). 12 of those were the building wipes (which imo were quite avoidable). out of the remaining 14 kills, 1 was an actual squad wipe (the cons insta retreating at the sound of the barage being fired). i really dont see how a 400mp 100fuel 1.5 min cd unit isnt supposed to at least be able to pull something like that off, sorry

Infantry support gun nets me around 40 - 50 kills per game. Just saying.

I always had the feeling the CD was 120 seconds aka 2 minutes, but everybody is talking about 1,5 mins?
I think with vet 2 it is 100 seconds which is still more than 1,5 mins.

???

On Topic. Without the building kills that really doesn't sound too effective.

And OZtheWiZARD pls give me tipps how to use the Infantry Gun^^ everytime I use it, it misses all the time, untill my enemy steals it and it gains pinpoint squadwiping bs accuracy

First of all make sure it's always in range to shoot stuff.
Use the barrage ability on concentration of infantry. ISG will auto fire kind of like a mortar whenever there is an enemy in range. This works well for every support team or defensive emplacement.
You can right click stuff and attack ground as well.

Make sure to retreat the gun when your attack fails so it won't stay there unprotected and easy to flank.

Of course I can elaborate.
By game design decision Soviets have access to only two tiers. All the balance in 1v1 revolves around this. In 2v2 and more you can overcome this by co operation and have access to whole Soviet arsenal. In that regards Soviets are over performing in team games.

The Soviet's are designed to lack flexibility relative to the Germans. You aren't meant to get more than 1 late tier building.

1 late tier building, however 2 early tiers are cheap enough that you can make both of them, however this is rare and almost no builds does this. Sovs aren't ment to go T3 and T4, which is why they have a really high fuel costs. Going T1 and T2 is an option.
It is not a matter of screwing with balance. Getting both tiers means later tanks. And means you probably wont see both at nades and molotovs.

So as I said before: Lets not compromise 1v1 balance due to team games disproportions.

Who cares about 1v1

I'm willing to bet the vast majority of games are team games

did watch it.

i wont put time stamps here, but rather assign numbers to the barrages.

first barrage (around 10-11 min): instant retreat the moment it was fired. if the okw player actually laid his rockets properly down on the retreat path it would have been way worse. i mentioned this before. autoretreating 3-4 units makes it quite easy for the barrage to hit something. as does a priest firing at the base building after a full retreat...

second: you know theres a stuka on the field. you know when its last barrage was fired. why stick to buildings? especially two so close together.im not saying to abandon all buildings forever, but when barrage is off CD you should be very careful

third: 3 models lost. lucky mortar shell killing the remaining 3 maxim crewmen

fourth: minor losses altough the shocks are right in the center of the barrage

fifth: total miss

sixth: game over. killing some pinned shocks. doesnt really count

so all in all that stuka scored 26 kills (not counting those shocks at the end). 12 of those were the building wipes (which imo were quite avoidable). out of the remaining 14 kills, 1 was an actual squad wipe (the cons insta retreating at the sound of the barage being fired). i really dont see how a 400mp 100fuel 1.5 min cd unit isnt supposed to at least be able to pull something like that off, sorry

1st barrage was the worst, it just demonstrates the power of stuka. instant retreat and cannot be saved. like you said, he didnt even need to aim it properly. the shell lands fast after firing.

a priest firing at the retreat point is not even a fair comparison. a katyusha could also be effective with all that units blobbed up. a stuka would have wiped everything and ended the game there.

2nd, should a single arty unit nullify all buildings? they werent relatively close mind you, they werent even side by side. there was a good distance between each building. should i fight out in the open against all that panzerfusiliers, he would have just A move me to hell. he had placed them nicely to hit both buildigs with most of the shells hitting nothing. only the bare edges landed and demolished the building regardless. also, no other arty piece is capable of nullifying buildings with just 1-2 shells. it still stands and should not be discounted. stuka in semosky is will level everything in the middle. last time i saw a panzerwerfer doing that, they need 2 for that kind of firepower.

6th, whether the game ended or not, a wipe is a wipe. there was no red smoke for this kind of destruction. it was a beautiful end to a fucked up game.

yes, rng did save us, but it works both sides. the stuka is 400mp and 100fuel. already he has dealt 240mp, 330mp+75muni, 240mp. that is a pretty good deal. i was not able to recover from all that damage sustained. in such a short time. could be have been better with his barrages, we would have been left with nothing.

the stuka does not need to target blobs to be effective. it is even effective on individual squads, so fuck those who says its an anti blob tool. it isnt, it nukes the shit out of everything that is the point im trying to bring out. for such a high return and low risk unit, it is in the area of being too effective at what it does.

ISG does more model damage than squad wipes. its much cheaper to reinforce units than buy new squads.

If OKW units are nerfed to normal standard then income must be normal as well.

196 fuel for stuka

225 fuel for katyusha

lolwut

196 fuel for stuka

225 fuel for katyusha

lolwut

Ur bringing the tech costs in?....we can play that game with extinct german T4 as well.Especially panther.Werfer is near equally bad as katyusha.
Also ask why okw panther costs 175 fuel with 2/3rd income no better performance..or why jagdpanzer 135 fuel with 2/3rd income and nowhere comparable performance to its actual conversion price.

I have been in about 4 or 5 games where a soviet t4 unit was made since WFA launched

I see panthers every match

Well I really don't understand why some people think it's normal to play one faction with a low risk (low punishment for unit loss, not so micro-demanding) as soviets and still require nerfs for a faction with such high risks as OKW (the most punishing for unit losses and micro demanding).

I have to agree.


I'm playing OKW a lot since WFA came out for precisely that reason


Every decision is crucial

I have been in about 4 or 5 games where a soviet t4 unit was made since WFA launched

I see panthers every match

Yes only u see panthers from ost and okw,that can happen only in 4 vs 4.In 2 vs 2 okw in soem cases maybe-they don't have an alternative.Apart from that the statement is just hyperbole.

Got nailed by one of these in a 3v3. They can be devastating.

Instead of moaning about it, see it as a challenge and figure out how to beat them.

So as I said before: Lets not compromise 1v1 balance due to team games disproportions.

Because we see A LOT of artillery on 1v1, like static ones, katys or panzerwerfers, as first or early units.

Not saying nothing here about if whether the WS is overperforming or not or other artillery pieces are underperforming.