Competitive Play

For those who have played the alpha and for everyone who has followed the various interviews, videos and articles surrounding CoH2, (I have done neither) and of course without breaching the NDA, I have a question. Are there any features in CoH2 that make it more friendly to high level play than the original CoH? I have seen a lot of things talking about "simplification" and lowering the learning curve, but little in the way of real improvements targeted specifically at high level play. Thoughts on this?

Edit: And by competitive play I mean high level ranked auto-match games and tournaments.

without breaching the NDA

without breaching the NDA, I (and everyone else) can tell you this:

Inb4 "mirror matches!"


New features that would add to high level play would, for me, be things that place higher demand on player reactions in terms of speed and accuracy, and I didn't see too much like that. Maybe pulling off big flanks with the vaulting mechanic could be interesting, or juking enemies with the true sight.

On the E-sport side of things, so far the news has been quite disappointing.

without breaching the NDA, I (and everyone else) can tell you this:

Insightful as ever.

"Feature that make it friendly to high level play"

I don't really understand the question.

The real big thing that fucked over CoH as a competitive title was the size of the player base and the marketing of the game.

Speaking to people who have given both SC2 and CoH a fair shot have pretty much said those things.

If the player base was bigger their would be more players on the auto match ladders and with more people it would be easier to match players up based on elo ratings.

Certainly I think there are some aspects of the game that will come to be seen as high level micro 'tricks' that we haven't had in CoH, over time. Things like;
- Checking for footprints in the snow
- Flaming a path through heavy snow
- Doing funky things with frozen lakes to sink stuff/cut units off
- Placing fires in 'perfect' locations such that you can move from one to another with the optimal level of temperature loss without loss of manpower

Those are the kinds of things I would imagine we'll be seeing in a high level CoH2 game further down the line. I think there are definitely aspects of it that will raise the skill level, but other things like the simplification of veterancy and resource design may also work against the benefits of a deep knowledge of the game- time will tell.

"Feature that make it friendly to high level play"

I don't really understand the question.

I think what he means is does CoH2 have the gameplay mechanics to potentially have a higher skill ceiling than vcoh.

@BHC: Not sure, most of the alpha maps weren't designed for competitive play.

"Feature that make it friendly to high level play"

I don't really understand the question.

The real big thing that fucked over CoH as a competitive title was the size of the player base and the marketing of the game.

Speaking to people who have given both SC2 and CoH a fair shot have pretty much said those things.

If the player base was bigger their would be more players on the auto match ladders and with more people it would be easier to match players up based on elo ratings.

CoH was never going to be a Starcraft, DOTA, LoL, it was too random and the micro is just too easy in comparison to other games. I don't expect CoH2 to try to emulate those games, but as Basilone said, a higher skill ceiling would be sweet. It seems almost lowered though as of now, with some of the changes and the CoHO features that are almost certain to be bad.

I think it's also important to make the higher skill ceiling be discernible to lower level viewers. One of the reasons that I prefer watching Dawn of War 2 replays before Company of Heroes replays. Company of Heroes is extremely fun, but I get bored watching it without commentary. DoW 2 on the other hand got so much ability comboing and other fun stuff that I can watch it perfectly fine without commentary.

It might just be preferences but I hope that CoH 2 will give some more visual high level pr0 moves. (I'm very curious about how sniper battles will turn out)

there's no such thing as a skill ceiling, you're always learning, always improving.

the random factor is one of the biggest bullshit reasons for hating on the game, if the game was so uncontrollably random then tournament seeds that would be totally inaccurate, in fact they were spot on in SNF season 4 and the previous tournaments that I've worked on.

there's no such thing as a skill ceiling, you're always learning, always improving.

the random factor is one of the biggest bullshit reasons for hating on the game, if the game was so uncontrollably random then tournament seeds that would be totally inaccurate, in fact they were spot on in SNF season 4 and the previous tournaments that I've worked on.

OK. There certainly is such a thing as a skill ceiling, it's when further attention to micro/attention/strategy begins to yield fewer and fewer returns on investment. Inverse, for example, spams a lot of clicks and moves very fast whenever I watch his stream, and it certainly helps him. But I can watch other players, just as good if not better, and they move slower and don't appear to suffer much. CoH does not reward lighting fast reflexes like CS and such games, nor just it reward perfection in builds like SC2 does. It's still a great game, but it has a very real skill ceiling, and I think every good player today would acknowledge that. Of course you always can get better and improve, but slightly and slowly once you get to tournament level CoH.

Crits, artillery, grenade placement, squad wipes on retreat, tank criticals, people diving out of cover, counter-snipes, unit accuracy and all sorts of other things are random and, by nature, harmful to skill based competition. Games have been lost purely based on artillery missing, or on lucky retreat paths, or on missed CS's. I love some of them as a spectator, but as a player, it really does matter I think. You have a point with seeds, but I think that's more down to the longevity of the game and the experience of the organizers by now. Is luck everything in CoH? No. Is is present, more so than in most other "competitive" RTS's? Yes.

Edit: I most certainly am not hating on CoH, also. I've been playing for like 4 years, and plan on continuing to play it. I just recognize the flaws it has.

I would argue that the randomness makes risk calculation and management all the more critical. Poker is random, but still extremely popular. It's about how you manage the risk and control that random factor. It also makes the games more exciting, IMO.

I find it odd that when I google "skill ceiling" the only hits that come up are all video game related. It makes me believe it's just a bullshit term used by people on the internet to justify their choices.

It might not require the reflexes needed in a FPS or the build order memorization of other RTS games but it still rewards outplaying your opponent by making better decisions than them and adjusting to situations faster.

Russians vs Wehrmacht gameplay feels like vcoh. No brits mechanics, is already big improvement for ladder, especially in team games.

I remember Quinn Duffy being asked on improving replays system. He said they'd love to do that, but they may have not enough time. Now when they have 3 more months, it's likely multiplayer will be improved a lot.

I find it odd that when I google "skill ceiling" the only hits that come up are all video game related. It makes me believe it's just a bullshit term used by people on the internet to justify their choices.

It might not require the reflexes needed in a FPS or the build order memorization of other RTS games but it still rewards outplaying your opponent by making better decisions than them and adjusting to situations faster.

A "skill ceiling" is simply the diminishing returns of improving at high level play. It's pretty simple, and I can't really explain it any better. Do people like Aimstrong or 12azor have any insight on this?

there's no such thing as a skill ceiling, you're always learning, always improving.

the random factor is one of the biggest bullshit reasons for hating on the game, if the game was so uncontrollably random then tournament seeds that would be totally inaccurate, in fact they were spot on in SNF season 4 and the previous tournaments that I've worked on.

Yeah there is, not in the sense that you are thinking though. Skill ceiling doesn't mean how good any individual can be (because most people are continually improving), skill ceiling is higher level gameplay mechanics that the better players exploit to distinguish themselves from lower level players...basically stuff that you don't see "noobs" doing because they either lack the knowledge or the micro/skill to do it.

examples:

-capwalking in CoH
-nade dodging in CoH
-sniper spamming in CoH MVGame
-scouting in SC2 (almost everyone above bronze level scouts, but it gets better in each league)
-drop shotting in CoD

So you're talking about differentiation of player ability and attempts to quantify that.

I'm afraid the only real reliable way to do that is through tournament performance, which you can't really do with CoH because there aren't enough tournaments.

I'm not talking about competitive events where people test their ability against someone of similar skill, I'm talking about game mechanics that differentiate the pro from the good from the average from the scrubs. Not everything needs to be mechanical changes though, more strategic diversity would raise the skill ceiling too.

Insightful as ever.

it's pretty much exactly what i am allowed to say according to the NDA that was not officially revealed yet.

you could ask for opinions on what effects those officially revealed new features/changes might have, but that has been discussed to death in other threads (Tommy did a very good summary on these things in his post).

it's pretty much exactly what i am allowed to say according to the NDA that was not officially revealed yet.

you could ask for opinions on what effects those officially revealed new features/changes might have, but that has been discussed to death in other threads (Tommy did a very good summary on these things in his post).

And yet we've managed to discuss several things of interest.