Big Balance Thread.

Id be more than happy to see a nerf to Obersoldaten if volks were more potent/effective at fighting an american rifleman spam.

Currently... Falshims and Obersoldaten are then only thing gonna save you from 5 rifle squads + the 2 free officer squads at the 10 min marker.

I disagree. We'd be homoginizing the factions. Volks are meant to be weak. Rifles are meant to be adaptable and effective in large numbers and Obersoldaten and Falshims are meant to be expensive elite infantry units.

Volks are a T0 unit largely made of old men, wounded, inexperienced troops. They're only meant to hold the line and soak whatever damage they can for their cost.

The factions have personality which makes the game fun, but slowly turning them into mirrors of each other isn't necessary for balance.

Are you serious? The expense and reinforce time for Obersoldaten notwithstanding, you are forced to get them mid game because of the second halftrack call-in time and the set up time thereafter.

By the time Obersoldaten come out, you have vehicles and fairly large sized army to counter them and whatever OKW has. So much whine.

As the OP on the Obersoldaten thread said: If you can get Obersoldaten out in 1v1 or 2v2 then you deserve to kill some rifles.

I think you haven't faced Vet 5 Obers yet dude. They don't give a fock about your unit preservation. They do need a nerf and then compensate their price. Ohh....and a side note; you can rush your 2nd truck and have shrecks and 43s covering your ass.

puting the lynx into med truck tier and upping its cost to smt like 60-65 fuel seems solid to me
volks could use with a small damage buff ( 1-2 damage more ) and obers lmg def needs toning down its just absurd on how easily it kills models ( maybe moving some dps from lmg to kar98k would be a nice fix - model loses would lower the dps finaly )
on a side note i think that pgrens /shocks /ppsh cons rly need some projection buff
oh the sturm oficer could benefit from a vet system similar to the panther comander

As it stands the USF vs OKW match up is quite largely unbalanced.

I agree with Corsin about US officers being given heavy weapons when they come onto the field is over powered. If the US infantry wasn't already super strong with instant suppression from the Rear Ech troops and rifleman being good at all ranges then maybe it would be fair. However as it stands this is not the case.

The USF can also field the M20 or the AA-HT track around the 5-6 minute mark and they are incredibly strong for how cheap they are. The fact that the M20 crew has a bazooka just makes the unit even more ridiculous. In my opinion it's armor should be the same as an Ostheer 222 scout car even with the skirts. As for the AA-HT it absolutely tears apart all light vehicles and infantry with no set up time at all compared to the OKW Flak HT which comes around the same time. Even the puma has to be wise around it as it does so much damage. Maybe a solution to this problem is add a set up time to the AA-HT and or make it weaker or perhaps slower.

Another suggestion to fix the balance could be putting the panzer 2 into tier 3 instead of tier 4. It seems incredibly strange to have such an average T-70 like tank in such a late tier where only the elite units should be.

Some serious adjustments need to be made to the flak-ht at any rate. It's setup time just makes it useless and will end up being the reason it gets destroyed. As soon as any armor or at gun gets eyes on it it's dead. This is because it will always get two 'shotted' as it can never pack up and run away in time. It's smoke ability will not do it any good against decent players either as they know how to use attack ground.

The USF AA must receive some nerf, obviously. My bet is that it will receive in the near future, for sure. The OKW AA is rather usefull even with that setup time. I could keep it safe due to that smoke throwing ability. What I didn't like is that ROF decrease...why? The initial stats were OK.
Related to Panzer 2 placing (in T4) I think the building concept of OKW forces is quite revolutionary, meaning that instead thinking the Tiers as specialised buildings that can spawn certain unit types for specific game's stages, almost every OKW tear offers you tools to deal (more or less efficiently) both with vehicles and infantry.
For instance: T3 - the AA deliver good AI damage, Puma works against light vehicles and medium tanks, the wurframen offers you a reliable range weapon.
T2 - infantry gun offers you a range weapon (good against infantry) and a powerfull AT solution;
T4 - offers you powerfull AI tools - PZII / obersoldaten, a powerfull tank - Panther and a mass distruction weapon - the SturmTiger.

Practicaly, T1 which you have it by default anyway + any other okw tier, offers you the oportunity to build a complete army, that covers almost every counter in the book. Which is a great concept in my view, and I wouldn't change that. What I would change, is creating somehow the option to directly build T4. Won't that be something

As it stands the USF vs OKW match up is quite largely unbalanced.

I agree with Corsin about US officers being given heavy weapons when they come onto the field is over powered. If the US infantry wasn't already super strong with instant suppression from the Rear Ech troops and rifleman being good at all ranges then maybe it would be fair. However as it stands this is not the case.

The USF can also field the M20 or the AA-HT track around the 5-6 minute mark and they are incredibly strong for how cheap they are. The fact that the M20 crew has a bazooka just makes the unit even more ridiculous. In my opinion it's armor should be the same as an Ostheer 222 scout car even with the skirts. As for the AA-HT it absolutely tears apart all light vehicles and infantry with no set up time at all compared to the OKW Flak HT which comes around the same time. Even the puma has to be wise around it as it does so much damage. Maybe a solution to this problem is add a set up time to the AA-HT and or make it weaker or perhaps slower.

Another suggestion to fix the balance could be putting the panzer 2 into tier 3 instead of tier 4. It seems incredibly strange to have such an average T-70 like tank in such a late tier where only the elite units should be.

Some serious adjustments need to be made to the flak-ht at any rate. It's setup time just makes it useless and will end up being the reason it gets destroyed. As soon as any armor or at gun gets eyes on it it's dead. This is because it will always get two 'shotted' as it can never pack up and run away in time. It's smoke ability will not do it any good against decent players either as they know how to use attack ground.

Hans gets it. It's funny reading all the soviet apparatchiks defending a whole new set of imbalances. Here are some of the main problems for OKW:

Maxim Spam. It's bad if you're Wehrmacht but its on a whole other level as OKW, the Gren's grenades are crap and the infantry gun is a 420mp joke. No flamer, no accurate artillery and no effective grenades make garrisoned units a nightmare to deal with.

Lack of resources. I get that's its fundamental to the design of OKW, and I also realise that in return OKW get a 5 star veterancy system and the Obersoldaten, but the munition cost for grenades, infantry upgrades and even the panther MG is just too much.

Lack of effective AT. Basically if you don't have fuel as OKW then its game over as the only effective AT OKW have either costs a lot of fuel or is infantry based, infantry based AT doesen't do you any good against soviets who have very effective anti-infantry armour, not to mention the KV-8.

Dane hits the nail in the head when he says that OKW has too many specialists and too many units that are just crap. They should move the PZII to the same position as the Jagdpanzer IV, buff the Jagdpanzer IV to be an effective anti-armour unit (Or get rid of it all together and replace it with a unit people actually like) then increase the potency of OKW grenades in buildings.

While I agree with the issues you listed, I think your approach to fixing / balancing them is not good (On a personal sidenote, I think OKW vs USF is probably still easier to win than OH vs USF).

The officers start with weapon upgrades, but are also more expensive than a normal riflemen squad. More popcap, more value, more reinforce cost.

M20 and 221/222 are pretty in line. With 11 / 5.5 armor and 240 HP for the M20 and 9 / 4.5 armor and 200 HP for the 221. Their guns are similar, though the M20 can tackle light vehicles better at short range due to higher penetration. The price 340 / 20 for the M20 and 210 / 15 for the 221 in my eyes makes those differences acceptable. My only current problem with the unit is the sideskirts upgrade, as it improves survivability a bit too much. The bazooka crew is good, but also risky - losing a M20 means it can drop a bazooka.

AA-HT is definitely a problem. I don't think their timing is a problem, as you can get the Oberkommando FlaK HT shortly earlier or a puma shortly after. They just vastly overperform for their cost. Suppression on HMGs as well as on the main gun, better DPS than an Ostwind and a good enough penetration to fight off even light tanks. I'd primarily nerf that unit, as I think it is one of the main causes why the USF are so strong right now.

Pz II in any other Tier buy T4 is a bad idea. Putting it in the medic truck would make this building far more appealing, putting it into the repair truck would create a really bad situation for USF or T1 Soviets. Right now a ~4 to 4:30 FlaK HT is no problem for Oberkommando and people hated it until they found out how easily the M15 AA HT counters it. Now imagine a 5 minute Panzer II that can fire on the move, kite perfectly and has a place where it can afterwards just drive to get repaired. Mediocre micro requirement, low chance of losing the unit (only Vet1 riflemen get rifle AT-nade, no AT on the field, can already beat the M15 AA HT right now, even more assuming that gets nerfed) and no need to bind another squad to repair. I think the PII has some timing issues at T4, but that's literally the only tier you can put it in :/

Regarding Riflemen and Rear Echelon. The latter definitely need a nerf / rework of their volley fire, while the first are really hard to balance I guess. They need to be able to deal some long range damage to fight Sturmpios, but not too much because Gren / Volksgren should outperform them on range in my opinion. You cannot buff their short range damage too much, as Sturmpios should win against them at that range. I think most nerfs to the Riflemen should be indirect nerfs, even if they do not fit the weapon profiles so much. Decrease Sturmpio mid/long damage, but increase short. Slightly decrease rifle long range damage. Then if needed, more nerfs. I'd first go with a worse moving modifier making them deal less damage on charges.

Besides those points to Hans I have to say I almost completely disagree with OP. 3/4 of the posted things are outright wrong or problematic. Since OP did not put the time into actually researching a lot of the prices or designs of the unit I don't see a reason to argue.

Personally I have a much easier time beating USF as Ostheer than OKW. This being easy access to support weapons like mg42s and mortars as well as utilizing the sniper which USF do not have a counter to. One of the glaring issues OKW have is a non doctrinal reliable suppressing unit. The Kubel is just way to fragile to last later on into the game and therefore nearly every OKW player is forced to go Luft in order to bring out the MG34s. This needs a serious look at imo.

The 120mm has been stealth buffed in WFA. Give it a try, you won't be disappointed with its performance.

Whenever you post it is usually gold. Are you able to expand on this a little?

Whenever you post it is usually gold. Are you able to expand on this a little?

I'm not sure on the exact stats of the HM120mm before WFA, but I'm very confident it was highly inaccurate both when attack-grounding and barraging, much more so than the GR34 81mm and the PM82mm.

Currently, though, it has a scatter angle/distance of 10/8 for default fire and 8/8 for barrage. This, coupled with a splash radius of 6, means it's very rare for the AOE not to damage a squad member with every shot (if I am interpreting the statistics correctly- correct me if I am wrong).

Compare this to the Ostheer mortar, which has a scatter angle/distance of 10/8 and 9/7, and the normal soviet mortar at 8/8 and 8/6, both with a splash radius of 4. The difference in accuracy is actually now quite a lot less significant than I'm sure it used to be.

Or you could ignore the stats, which are pretty pointless, and test it against the AI- firing at max range with vision it's quite easy to tell it's been changed and a heck of a lot more accurate.

Or you could ignore the stats, which are pretty pointless, and test it against the AI- firing at max range with vision it's quite easy to tell it's been changed and a heck of a lot more accurate.

Those stats aren't pointless. It is good information to have. Thank you much!

I'm not sure on the exact stats of the HM120mm before WFA, but I'm very confident it was highly inaccurate both when attack-grounding and barraging, much more so than the GR34 81mm and the PM82mm.

Currently, though, it has a scatter angle/distance of 10/8 for default fire and 8/8 for barrage. This, coupled with a splash radius of 6, means it's very rare for the AOE not to damage a squad member with every shot (if I am interpreting the statistics correctly- correct me if I am wrong).

the last files i had extracted were from april 24, but the scatter used to be 12/15 for both auto fire and barrage. not to mention its damage was increased by 50%... its had a massive ninja buff.

the last files i had extracted were from april 24, but the scatter used to be 12/15 for both auto fire and barrage. not to mention its damage was increased by 50%... its had a massive ninja buff.

Can you check all the Mortars WOOOF? Because in another thread I mentioned that I was getting chewed up and spat out by the Ost Mortar.

theyre all significantly more accurate. strummingbird has already provided the new stats.

Compare this to the Ostheer mortar, which has a scatter angle/distance of 10/8 and 9/7, and the normal soviet mortar at 8/8 and 8/6

they used to be 12/14 12/14 12/14 10/12 respectively

You are the man. Now to dig up an old thread and serve someone a big steaming pile of HUMBLE PIE...

(I know Sturm gave us current but I didnt know what it used to be)

yay, im all up for support weapons being more effective at you know, supporting.

Everything that makes grenspam/conspam/anyspam less viable and combined arms is +900000 for me.

Just adds to the list of ninja changes. Sad that there is no comprehensive list of ninja changes yet.