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A question for the German coh community

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Hypnotoad
3 Mar 2013, 00:58 AM
#1
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Hey there,

Something I noticed when I tuned into Freestyler's stream (and when I saw Pfuschers' skins awhile ago) recently was the Swastika's and Sig Runes displayed prominently on the Skin being used. Now I know that the display of Nazi symbolism is illegal in Germany and Austria and is punishable in Germany by a maximum of 5 years in jail. The only exception to this rule is when Swastika's and so on are displayed in an 'historically appropriate' manner - i.e, school history textbooks.

Now my question is, how are you guys able to have this symbolism visible in your streams and on your skins?
I'm wondering if there's there some grey area on the internet or relating to the 'historically appropriate' exception? or are you just hoping no-one from the Verfassungschütz (the German govt. watchdog that spies on subversive groups) or the BKA (the German FBI) is tuning in?

I'm not trying to troll or register a moral idignation or troll, i'm just curious about the situation. Cheers :)
"A wild Command Truck appears, It's super effective!" - Rogers
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cr4wler
3 Mar 2013, 01:21 AM
#2
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Nullo actore, nullus iudex
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AmiPolizeiFunk
3 Mar 2013, 11:25 AM
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Excellent question imo, I'm curious as well.
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Arne
3 Mar 2013, 12:21 PM
#4
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the law explicitly states that in minor cases court can abstain from any punishment, so no attorney will even bother to follow a case like this. There is no intention of spreading right wing extremist ideologies with the skin pack after all and it could even be argued that it is covered by the exemption for art (although it's unlikely that's really the case).
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HelpingHans
3 Mar 2013, 12:48 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2013, 00:58 AMHypnotoad

The only exception to this rule is when Swastika's and so on are displayed in an 'historically appropriate' manner - i.e, school history textbooks.


This game is based on historical events and therefore appropriate.
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RagingJenni
3 Mar 2013, 16:28 PM
#6
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You can easily make the case that the game is depicting WW2 and thus should be able to use swastikas for historical accuracy.
No spreading out, no fancy stuff, just smash through. Let's see how those degenerate sophisticates handle a healthy dose of pure unreasoning violence.
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OnkelSam
3 Mar 2013, 16:38 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2013, 12:48 PMHelpingHans

This game is based on historical events and therefore appropriate.

No, its not. Otherwise companies wouldn't make special german releases without swastikas and nazi symbols in all WW2 related games.

However, it will most likely as Arne stated. It's a minor thing if specific end-users do it themself, so it will be tolerated.
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cr4wler
3 Mar 2013, 17:25 PM
#8
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2013, 12:48 PMHelpingHans


This game is based on historical events and therefore appropriate.


if that was the case, i could hang a swastika flag in my garden: "it's based on historical events and therefore appropriate". actually, those historical events are what makes it inapproriate in the first place ^^

if someone doesn't like you, he might call the police on you... but it's unlikely something would happen, and as i said earlier... unless someone actually tells on you, nothing will happen.

but, i have to correct you here arne, the law does not state anything about no punishment for minor cases (§86 StGB does, §86a StGB does NOT though, and most likely §86a is the one that would be more appropriate here (propagandamittel would probably be things like "der stürmer", "mein kampf" etc. while §86a explicitly is mentioning flags, uniform(parts) etc.)... i'm not a lawyer though ;-))...
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Arne
3 Mar 2013, 17:43 PM
#9
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The last part of §86a says "(3) § 86 Abs. 3 und 4 gilt entsprechend".
Which are the exemption clauses:
"(3) Absatz 1 gilt nicht, wenn das Propagandamittel oder die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient.
(4) Ist die Schuld gering, so kann das Gericht von einer Bestrafung nach dieser Vorschrift absehen."
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cr4wler
3 Mar 2013, 18:08 PM
#10
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wieder was gelernt ;-)
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AmiPolizeiFunk
3 Mar 2013, 20:50 PM
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c'mon I can struggle through those but if you guys are gonna post solely auf deutsche pls provide a quick synopsis/translation!
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Spanky
3 Mar 2013, 21:14 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2013, 20:50 PMAmiPolizeiFunk
c'mon I can struggle through those but if you guys are gonna post solely auf deutsche pls provide a quick synopsis/translation!


+1 ^^
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Arne
3 Mar 2013, 21:50 PM
#13
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2013, 20:50 PMAmiPolizeiFunk
c'mon I can struggle through those but if you guys are gonna post solely auf deutsche pls provide a quick synopsis/translation!


Basically §86 says you cannot publish anticonstitutional propaganda material, while §86a bans symbols of anticonstitutional movements (mainly swastikas, the SS runes etc)

Now §86 defines exemptions in paragraph 3 and 4:
"(3) Absatz 1 gilt nicht, wenn das Propagandamittel oder die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient.
(4) Ist die Schuld gering, so kann das Gericht von einer Bestrafung nach dieser Vorschrift absehen."
"(3) Paragraph 1 does not apply, if the publication of the propaganda material serves the education, defense against anticonstitutional intents, the art or science, the research or teaching, the coverage of current events or of history or similar purposes.
(4) In minor cases, the court can abstain from punishing according to this article"

The last part of §86a) states:
"(3) § 86 Abs. 3 und 4 gilt entsprechend"
"(3) §86 paragraph 3 and 4 apply correspondingly"

So the same exemptions that apply for propaganda material also apply for swastikas etc, the lawmakers in germany are just too lazy to copy the whole exemption catalouge and instead reference it.
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Hypnotoad
3 Mar 2013, 22:21 PM
#14
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Posts: 107

Arne and cr4wler, thanks for the clarification guys.

Ich habe Deutsche kultur, sozietät und der sprache für vier jahren hier in Neuseeland studiert, aber weiß ich immer fast nichts.
So würdige ich euer antworten sehr, danke noch mal :D
"A wild Command Truck appears, It's super effective!" - Rogers
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Twister
3 Mar 2013, 22:51 PM
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Vielen dank!
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HelpingHans
3 Mar 2013, 23:59 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2013, 17:25 PMcr4wler


if that was the case, i could hang a swastika flag in my garden: "it's based on historical events and therefore appropriate". actually, those historical events are what makes it inapproriate in the first place ^^

if someone doesn't like you, he might call the police on you... but it's unlikely something would happen, and as i said earlier... unless someone actually tells on you, nothing will happen.

but, i have to correct you here arne, the law does not state anything about no punishment for minor cases (§86 StGB does, §86a StGB does NOT though, and most likely §86a is the one that would be more appropriate here (propagandamittel would probably be things like "der stürmer", "mein kampf" etc. while §86a explicitly is mentioning flags, uniform(parts) etc.)... i'm not a lawyer though ;-))...


What are you talking about? The game is set in world war 2 like so many other games and films and therefore for historical accuracy the swastika and all other nazi symbols of that time should be used. It would look stupid without them. Everyone playing these games and watching films about nazi's or whatever should understand that so what's the big deal? It's history whether you like it or not. Also your example of putting a flag outside today in your garden is off the subject...
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HelpingHans
4 Mar 2013, 00:15 AM
#17
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2013, 16:38 PMOnkelSam

No, its not. Otherwise companies wouldn't make special german releases without swastikas and nazi symbols in all WW2 related games.

However, it will most likely as Arne stated. It's a minor thing if specific end-users do it themself, so it will be tolerated.


So what you are saying is there are a ton of tailor made ww2 films like Saving Private Ryan and games for example that cut out all Nazi iconography? If that is the case then countries like Russia or even Great Britain should remove their iconography from films and games as well because history sure tells of the atrocities that were committed by these states. Anyway HypnoToad said that "The only exception to this rule is when Swastika's and so on are displayed in an 'historically appropriate' manner". If a game or film is based on historical fact then according to this exception shouldn't they be allowed?
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RagingJenni
4 Mar 2013, 01:28 AM
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The Germans are a bit more sensitive about it though, and rightfully so.
No spreading out, no fancy stuff, just smash through. Let's see how those degenerate sophisticates handle a healthy dose of pure unreasoning violence.
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cr4wler
4 Mar 2013, 01:38 AM
#19
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Posts: 1164

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2013, 23:59 PMHelpingHans
It's history whether you like it or not. Also your example of putting a flag outside today in your garden is off the subject...


it's the law that it's forbidden in germany, whether you like it or not.
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Hypnotoad
4 Mar 2013, 01:52 AM
#20
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Posts: 107

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Mar 2013, 00:15 AMHelpingHans
"The only exception to this rule is when Swastika's and so on are displayed in an 'historically appropriate' manner". If a game or film is based on historical fact then according to this exception shouldn't they be allowed?


I get where you're coming from Hans, but it remains an open question whether German lawmakers or prosecutors would see it that way.

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Mar 2013, 01:28 AMRagingJenni
The Germans are a bit more sensitive about it though, and rightfully so.


Haha yeah, they totally should be as 'sensitive' as they are now, because the Russians (for instance) are so forthcoming about their past sins..

"While the Soviet Union was not a democracy, It was an example of fairness the world over.."
- an excerpt from a Russian school history textbook
"A wild Command Truck appears, It's super effective!" - Rogers
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