Official Obersoldaten OP Thread

Just as a reminder - this is always averages. You can hit more or less etc.

Every single Shock entity needs 80 HP * 1.5 armor = 120 small arms damage to kill. There are 6 Shocks, so 6 * 120 = 720 damage to kill a whole squad.
Every single Obersoldat needs 80 * 1.25 armor / .75 incoming accuracy = 133.33 small arms damage to kill. There are 4 Obersoldaten, so 4 * 133.33 = 533.33 damage to kill a whole squad.

Keep in mind that some weapons have penetration values (M3A1SC, M3A1HT, M5, HMGs, ...) which kill quicker as they will pierce the armor more often.

Edit: Actually calculating the chances for a Obersoldaten StG44 squad to win against a Shock squad at close range is borderline impossible to do without certain assumptions. If you make the assumption that all entities stand equally far from each other and they always focus one entity, then the calculation gets rather simple.
Calculate the time it takes for either of them to drop an opposing entity and save how much dmg the other did till that point in time. Recalculate the damage of the squad lacking one entity and repeat (one starting at 0 the other at the dmg they already dealt) until all entities are dead.
Anyone can do that. It's simple, but it takes some time and effort.

Just as a reminder - this is always averages. You can hit more or less etc.

Every single Shock entity needs 80 HP * 1.5 armor = 120 small arms damage to kill. There are 6 Shocks, so 6 * 120 = 720 damage to kill a whole squad.
Every single Obersoldat needs 80 * 1.25 armor / .75 incoming accuracy = 133.33 small arms damage to kill. There are 4 Obersoldaten, so 4 * 133.33 = 533.33 damage to kill a whole squad.

Keep in mind that some weapons have penetration values (M3A1SC, M3A1HT, M5, HMGs, ...) which kill quicker as they will pierce the armor more often.

Excellent so each Obersoldaten entity will live longer therefore dish out damage with a higher drop off. STG44 Obers should always always beat STs in almost every case (barring Bad RNG or Nades). Unupgraded Obers should easily beat STs if they arent surprised.

Yep if Obersoldaten didnt get access to the upgrade STs would be almost balanced against them pretty well with STs being able to live longer though not winning consistent engagements against them.

Neat.

StG44 Obers actually SHOULD beat Shocks in almost every case. The infrared StG44 is less of an upgrade, but more of a sidegrade turning it to a short/mid range focused squad instead of a long ranged one. At roughly 550 MP value (400 + 90 * 1.66) they are the most valuable infantry squad ever. Second most valuable is the PGrens with Schreck (340 + 120*1.66 = 540) and third is Paratroopers with 535 value.

Added Fallschirms to http://www.coh2.org/topic/18852/official-obersoldaten-op-thread/post/175033
btw. You can nicely see how they are something of an intermediate between Obersoldaten and PGrens not only in role (not as extreme short/long range), but also in overall performance.

That table is gold. Thanks Milka!

The price to performance comparison between FJs and STs has been done. They should be worse than FJs since they cost less and slightly better than STs since they cost a tiny bit more. Instead they LOL melt the shit out of STs. Not to mention how wonderful and synergizing their Vet is.

To folks that say they come out late. You can have them out as your second building if you want. Also STs have no AT either. Lets just buff STs to 95% of Obersoldaten then? Range profile too? No? Well then that might be because they are overperforming for all their benefits and cost.

I love playing OKW. I think they are my new Favorite faction. But Obersoldaten are clearly overperforming.

I talk about vehicles to counter obersoldaten and you come up with shock troops.
Your price comparison moreover lacks since obersoldaten need teching and rushing for them exposes you to be vulnerable to tanks since you cant get a puma or a jagdpanzer until late game when you rush for obersoldaten.

Shocks melt down Obers on close range, regardless of cover and the Stg44 upgrade. If you charge on open field, or charge without smoke you should be punished for that and not crying that something is op, while there are more than enough ways to counter that unit. You want to counter them simply with infantry, but they are not designed to be dealt in that way.

Played a game against somebody who rushed for obers. I wiped out one squad with the AA track and chased wiped the other with a utility car. My opponent rage quitted after that.

This game is not about manpower costs but about right tactics and the right use of units. A Kv8 costs more than a stug, yet a stug kills a kv8, you also don't cry about that. In the same way infantry is not symmetrically designed, all the infantry squads have different uses and strength, you cry to equalize them all by their manpower cost.
Yet you seem to forget they are equalized by their manpower costs if you use them in a proper way.
Shocks near range > obers, falls /// Airbornes with thompson close range > obers, falls

Start to use the game mechanics right before crying for a nerf.

Snip

Except as shown STs dont melt Obers. At best they can hurt them if you allow them to jump on unupgraded Obers at Point blank range.

Yes Armor is the counter to Obers. You just brought forth the problem. Armor used to be the counter for shocks and snipers but that wasnt good enough. So you have the current STs that can only do damage at the range of a T70s length and do 0 beyond that.

Just because something arrives late doesnt mean it should outperform all other units on a cost basis. Weakness to armor or no weakness to armor.

Thats like saying that Falls shouldnt even get close to Obers DPS because they have a faust!

Silly arugement is silly.

Obers BEST comparison is a doctrinal only Soviet Only unit that costs ALMOST as much and yet has alot more weaknesses and doesnt perform nearly as well. Any other infantry cant even come close.

Except as shown STs dont melt Obers. At best they can hurt them if you allow them to jump on unupgraded Obers at Point blank range.

Yes Armor is the counter to Obers. You just brought forth the problem. Armor used to be the counter for shocks and snipers but that wasnt good enough. So you have the current STs that can only do damage at the range of a T70s length and do 0 beyond that.

Just because something arrives late doesnt mean it should outperform all other units on a cost basis. Weakness to armor or no weakness to armor.

Thats like saying that Falls shouldnt even get close to Obers DPS because they have a faust!

Silly arugement is silly.

Obers BEST comparison is a doctrinal only Soviet Only unit. Any other infantry cant even come close.

No, the counter shocks used to be a rush for a flame halftrack since they would even shred a 222 car. There was just one way to deal with it if you wanted to stay in the game. That's boring and against the spirit of coh. In the same the only way was to deal with an ISU pre patch was to get out an elefant, a stale one way meta of the game.
If you see that a meta develops to deal with a unit, then you can say something is op.
That's not the case with obers, you have various ways to deal with them, every soviet buildings offers a counter to them, likewise every Us building offers a counter.

There is no stale meta needed to deal with them. You have several ways at every point of the game. You don't need to rush for something or chose a specific doctrine.

If you have several ways to deal effectively with a unit its a sign that it is not op.

Awesome. So the KV8 was never OP. Who cares if it ended infantry like a Boss and killed all retreating squads. IT SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN NERFED! It came late and it was doctrinal and the counters were already THERE! There were tons of ways to deal with it!

No thats a flawed argument.

what i found that airborne with 0.30 cal are comparable, if not outright beat obersoldaten.

If you nerf OS you have to buff the other OKW infantry. Volksgrens have been nerfed while Rifles win on mid, short and even if rushing through negative cover.

If you nerf OS you have to buff the other OKW infantry. Volksgrens have been nerfed while Rifles win on mid, short and even if rushing through negative cover.

You'd played alpha, you'd knew volks got buffed.

Volks are not meant to go toe to toe with rifles, no, that doesn't mean they are bad.
Use Kubels or sturmpios to support them, then you'll win engagements.

USF have most expensive and best core infantry and volkspam works only against soviets, deal with it.

Sure you're right, US Rifles are meant to be the best Infantry that's for sure.
But Sturmpios won't do anything because they have to get damn close to be effective and while getting into close combat you will lose at least 1 guy, mostly 2. And every OKW player knows how Rifles are extremely well at killing retreating troops.

In addition the Kübelwagen is a piece of crap that you cannot navigate in any way.
It will turn and drive around however the driver wants to resulting in a burning wreck.

Still, Kubel wins you early engagements and without it you cripple yourself willingly against USF.

TBH I can't imagine fighting USF without Kubel, not because its good, but because you need it, but there is nothing wrong with it, it lasts you enough to get another unit tier or doctrinal that packs a punch.

Still, Kubel wins you early engagements and without it you cripple yourself willingly against USF.

TBH I can't imagine fighting USF without Kubel, not because its good, but because you need it, but there is nothing wrong with it, it lasts you enough to get another unit tier or doctrinal that packs a punch.

Its too expensive and Fragile. Yes it does suppress good. I want to see someone get one to vet 5....

Awesome. So the KV8 was never OP. Who cares if it ended infantry like a Boss and killed all retreating squads. IT SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN NERFED! It came late and it was doctrinal and the counters were already THERE! There were tons of ways to deal with it!

No thats a flawed argument.

Yeah, just ignore what I wrote. Compare tanks with infantry units and derail by talking about complete other units and old patches. Why don't you counter obers with vehicles? Why do you want to mirror infantry, its brings boredom to the game.

I personally never found the Kv8 to be op to be dealt with, it was just too punishing if you don't have a counter when it rolls out.

Buffing volks and nerfing os would destroy the design of the okw faction. It's a inflexible hard counter faction, take away the hard counters and it just remains inflexible.
The soviet faction is comparable in my opinion, however it doesn't counter as hard but has instead more durability. Nobody asks to take away the 6 man squads and by this take away what makes the faction unique and strong (except for german fanboys)

Yeah, just ignore what I wrote. Compare tanks with infantry units and derail by talking about complete other units and old patches. Why don't you counter obers with vehicles? Why do you want to mirror infantry, its brings boredom to the game.

I am not ignoring it. I am just showing you flawed logic. If a unit over performs for what it costs then it needs to be adjusted. It doesnt matter what it is or where it is in the Tech tree.

Post turning point this was a game where soft counters were abundant. A well placed Gren could beat a Shock.

Units like Obersoldaten need a hard counter. There is no cover, positioning, flanking that makes them cost effective to counter with Infantry. Unlike the current STs. The change to STs was a good change for those reasons.

Its too expensive and Fragile. Yes it does suppress good. I want to see someone get one to vet 5....

Well, it really only needs to last 5 mins, then you're home with proper combat units.

I am not ignoring it. I am just showing you flawed logic. If a unit over performs for what it costs then it needs to be adjusted. It doesnt matter what it is or where it is in the Tech tree.

Post turning point this was a game where soft counters were abundant. A well placed Gren could beat a Shock.

Units like Obersoldaten need a hard counter. There is no cover, positioning, flanking that makes them cost effective to counter with Infantry. Unlike the current STs. The change to STs was a good change for those reasons.

The hard counter are vehicles

By what do you decide whether a unit over performs what is costs. Of course the time something reaches the game has to be taken into account, otherwise adjustments like CP unlocks also don't matter.

In the alpha the modifier on retreating units was 1.5 and you could get them out even earlier, that was too much and I also asked to nerf them to a point where they are not too punishing. In my opinion this point is reached because you have various ways to deal with them. It's not just the way you want to deal with them, which is infantry. Thats ignorant.

Shock troops are a call in and come in much earlier in the game, their role is a complete different one. You have to be very biased to compare units with different roles and different design directly like you do. You still ignore the fact that shocks beat Obersoldaten when you use them according to their role.

Don't know which game you were playing but there was no way a green squad could kill or even force a shock troops squad (with it's 2.5 armour) to retreat.

i love kubels. most people dont expect them, and if you dont fuck up they can prove to be really really helpful early game.

Unit A costs 390 MP

Unit B costs 400MP

Both units are infantry. Both units are infantry only hard counters.

Unit A can be cost effectively soft countered by infantry.

Unit A has a serious range problem and is only effective at one range.

Unit B cost 10 WHOLE MORE MP but arrives sometimes way later other times slightly later.

Unit B is good at all ranges.

Unit B 9/10 times can beat Unit A and gets an upgrade that means 10 out of 10 times beats Unit A.

Unit B cannot be cost effectively countered by infantry.

I dont know who would think thats balanced.

How exactly are STs roles different? Please enlighten me because STs are AI only infantry specialists as are Obersoldaten.

Shocks have 1.5 armor.