Ost vs Soviet core redesign discussion

another thread about balance.. stick with one thread please.

Everything CoH2player said is very informative, and after reading it it just confirms that the core design of the Ostheer and Red Army is authentic.

...just that he made some errors in his statments and it is too general.

another thread about balance.. stick with one thread please.

Clearly the threads headline is "core redesign"

another thread about balance.. stick with one thread please.

Don't you know that its not how well you build your argument and how well you support it with examples, but how many times you can repeat it in the shortest amount of time is what makes it more valid?

Clearly the threads headline is "core redesign"

Which does quite heavily influence balance you know.
This is a balance thread just like any other.

Except this time OP tries to reinvent even bigger wheel that is set in stone.

Yes, when you change the faction´s design, you can start the balance all over again. Since balance discussions require some games played using the new design, we can´t talk about it now, right?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell that would lead to:

-homogenization
-eventually mirror armies
-extremely boring game

When you build a tall building using concrete as foundation, you don't go "lets change the foundation to wood while we're about to build few more floors" without expecting a disaster beyond fixing.

Hell, what he asks for infantry we already had year ago for tanks back in closed beta, guess what? It didn't worked out at all.

Let me remind you that we have seen both, sherman and USF whole tech and none of it had tank riders.

Dammit I thought they were in as a commander ability, saw them in one of the early Western Fronts trailers and in some pictures here in this very forum. So they scratched the idea?

...

You realize how silly is bringing stuff from a year ago, where the whole game was completely different?

Initial low manpower? That made T1/T2 or even both openings really difficult.
MG42 insta pin? MG42 spam? +10% supression bulletin?

Theres no sense on bringing puntual "facts" when you are not taking into account the whole picture.

FHT rush? Vet2 extra armor n hp? Panther spam?
"Some OH fans used to rant so hard that that was "fine and balanced"."

On the other hand i remember how you had to prepare for the quick T70 or you could get really fucked (giving you a sample of me remembering bs from both sides)

Its not silly, because its true and even supported by thread evidence.
Certainly wasnt the only incident of such ludicrous wrongeness, but its one that stands out for me as particularly ridiculous.
By all means, post your own likewise, if you wish.

Aside from that, stow away your butthurt, please, sir. No need to get angry about it.

Point was to show that even obvious and necessary changes are at times resisted by ridiculous arguments.
Dont be one of those guys, or history will make a fool of you.

Wow lots of discussions going on in here! I just wanted to make a note that the goal of he thread is the authentic feeling of immersion between the two factions via re design. I just put the squad size question to get the thread going. Let's forget which side has 6 man or 4 man squads. Let's discuss the core idea of giving squads 6 models or 4 models either side.

6 models pros:

1. Good for picking up empty static weapons. Leaves you with 3 man squad to use tactically with re crewed weapon.
2. Higher odds of retreating 3 man crew alive to reinforce.

6 model cons:

1. Finding adequate cover
2. Easier to hit with mortor and aoe weapons.

There are many more pros and cons and I will let you guys hammer them out if you like. Remember it's not a balance question it's more of a should a standard squad size have more models?

Also if you had a choice what would you rather prefer? A 6 man squad or two 3 man squads? For example would one six man squad with abilities and cool downs be better than two 3 man squads with abilities and cool downs ect.

Perhaps if Coh2 had more complex infantry mechanics, like MenofWar or Close Combat series, there would be more impetus for a more detailed, and historically representative infantry system (with things like individual troops losing morale, being wounded, running out of ammo and things like that).

As it is, that level of complexity doesnt really occur in Coh2, and probably better to keep infantry xomposition, stats etc as simple as possible to ease balance and for a more streamlined game that focuses more in action rather than being overburdened by details.

Perhaps in future CoH releases, which I for one, certainly hope will continue to roll out as we all become old RTS farts.

Also possible that at some point Relic opens up the game to modding, as they did with DoW2 and in particular the ELITE mod.
That could provide an avenue for the kind of infantry representation you are talking about.

Well is it that complex? Is the best way to produce a feeling of soviet mp superiority with 6 man squads? Or would more abundant 3 man squads better portray this? Obviously 3 man squads would lose to a 4 man squad but it you could concentrate two 3 man squads against a 4 man squad they would win.

Obviously the goal would be to make the ost players feel as though they were facing soviet hordes. Of course small squads also has an issue of map control. Smaller and more numerous squads can cap more territory quickly.