Login

russian armor

General World War 2 Discussion Thread

PAGES (14)down
19 Jan 2015, 11:18 AM
#121
avatar of CasTroy

Posts: 559

Bagration is probably the largest operation that receives little to no attention in the west simply because it happened at the same time as Normandy.

Siege of Leningrad is the other biggy


Good examples. Especially Operation "Bagration" shows the curious german tactic of defending fortified places (don´t exactly know how to translate it) which coh2player meantioned in some previous posts.

I think people are too clueless on the Soviet '30s in order to get a good understanding of the USSR during the war.


I definitely agree with this.

19 Jan 2015, 11:34 AM
#122
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3552 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2015, 11:18 AMCasTroy


Good examples. Especially Operation "Bagration" shows the curious german tactic of defending fortified places (don´t exactly know how to translate it) which coh2player meantioned in some previous posts.



Like "Panzer", "Festung" tends not be translated

We might also use "Hedgehog", "Stronghold", "Fortress"

Hedgehog tends to be on a smaller scale of interlocking villages though



19 Jan 2015, 11:57 AM
#123
avatar of CasTroy

Posts: 559

Like "Panzer", "Festung" tends not be translated

We might also use "Hedgehog", "Stronghold", "Fortress"

Hedgehog tends to be on a smaller scale of interlocking villages though


Ah I see, thank you. :thumb: "Stronghold" and "Fortress" even came to my mind, but I did not know if the translation would have been to much in relation to the Middle Ages or Revolutionary/Napoleonic Warfare. :)


Back on Topic:


What I forgot to mention is the whole allied Italian-Campaign (especially Battle of Monte Cassino 1944/ Operation "Olive" 1944 / Battle of Monte Castello 1944/45) which is often underestimated in its entirety and influence not only on the western, but also on the eastern front.
19 Jan 2015, 14:22 PM
#124
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862



This is not the way to open a dialogue.

There are many reasons for the early successes of '39, '40. and '41. Vague oversimplifications like "starting from their home base" is neither an explanation for their success, nor is it a good basis to discredit military accomplishments.


I like the criticism of the response juxtaposed with categorizing a summation as "oversimplification".

On the day Operation Barbarossa began 3 million men crossed their demarcation line with fully loaded supply trains with direct rail and road links to their supply location and to face an outnumbered, UNlead, and poorly trained opposition. The ONLY thing they had to concern themselves with was the speed and distance of their advance.

The Allies had the opposite problem. The Russians at the beginning of Bagracion were starting from lines that had already been advanced several hundred miles. And the Western allies started D-Day landing a whole 150,000 men on a beach and using an enormous amount of additional men and material to do it. They would then have to continue to land men and their supplies over beaches or a distant and damaged port and then transport it across the damaged roads of France. The Germans ran so fast that the supplies were unable to support sustained operations past September.


The French, British and Russians (to a lesser extent) all had their share of WWI veteran commanders and command staff, no different than the Germans. It was their inability to anticipate and respond to the new wave of fast moving/motorized warfare, among other things, that led to their early humiliations.


Which is exactly my point. in 1939-1941 The Germans had developed a strategy that got within their opponents OODA loop. More to the point they did it with experienced troops against inexperienced troops (this makes a huge difference). In 1944 the allies had to go up against an axis that already knew what modern warfare looked like and had experienced troops to fight it.



I hope you realize than the whole of England was essentially the world's largest military base leading up to mid 1944. The massive buildup and organization of the invasion forces was done covertly...but in relative safety and the English channel was really no great obstacle for the Allies as they had full navy and air superiority in Western Europe at that time.


If you truly believe that this is all there is to it you would make a very poor logistician. Having a full 100,000 sq. meter warehouse can supply very little at a time if it only has one loading bay.

England was full of supplies. But the allies knew they had to focus on getting those onto French soil and to operating units. And they did it well. The Germans thought the allied reliance on motorized transport would be a liability since horses could forage but trucks need fuel. They did not conceive of Pluto, the fuel supply system the allies set up to pump fuel over the beaches.

There is a US military adage that amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics. The corollary is a rephrasing of the old "tactics win battles but strategy wins wars" to "tactics win battles, logistics win wars."

Lots of thought goes into logistics in the US military and has ever since the creation of West Point as an academy of not just military training but of engineering and scientific training as well.

19 Jan 2015, 14:34 PM
#125
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862

I think people are too clueless on the Soviet '30s in order to get a good understanding of the USSR during the war.
Like the rise to power of the Tsarytsin group, and their consolidation of power in '34 would help explain the disastrous year of 1941. The development of industry and the civil structure as well as the fluctuation of repression, both in severity and targets is kinda a big deal if you want to get a hold of how that country worked. And more importantly how people thought and acted.

Most people kinda know about the NSDAPs rise to power in the 30s and what led up to the war. But in regards to the USSR knowledge is sub-par.

I did a start of some kind in this thread a couple of pages back, I will get back to that work when I have time. This time probably in some knew thread. Maybe in the style of TToH, but focusing on institutions and the macro rather than the micro.



I think it is astounding to see the change in Soviet military capability from '41 to the end of the war especially considering the losses suffered in '41-42. It shows that the very opposite of what Hitler thought about the Soviets was true... His strategy and thinking was based on the "rotten house" theory of Russia that if you kicked in the door the whole structure would collapse. They kept kicking down pieces through '42 and it never collapsed.
19 Jan 2015, 14:40 PM
#126
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862

I wanted to add one more part about Hitler... He was not a strategic idiot and he was not insane (well, not until the very end probably). Don't forget that by the end of summer '41 the generals must have thought Hitler was some sort of political/military savant. He had lead them to the capture of Europe and most of Afrika and they believed they were well on their way to defeating Russia, the mighty landmass that had vexxed even Napoleon. They must have been drunk on their successes by that point.

He made rational choices that made sense but they were based on the worng criteria. If there was a strategic choice to be made between what was best for Germany and the German people and what fit his Nazi ideology, he picked ideology every time.

Here is a great lecture from the US Army War College on this very topic (only half hour.):

19 Jan 2015, 15:15 PM
#127
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571


Bagration was also very short (with most of the fighting done in 2 weeks, and then the front stabilized) and one-sided (extreme disaster for the Germans). The Soviets advanced faster and farther than the Germans in Poland.

Bagration (against AGC) and L'vov (against AG-North Ukraine) were interconnected offensives. There is not enough on Bagration, and as far as I have found, only one book on L'vov in english, which is a soviet general staff study from that period.

Bagration is probably the largest operation that receives little to no attention in the west simply because it happened at the same time as Normandy.

Siege of Leningrad is the other biggy

19 Jan 2015, 16:00 PM
#128
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862


Bagration was also very short (with most of the fighting done in 2 weeks, and then the front stabilized) and one-sided (extreme disaster for the Germans). The Soviets advanced faster and farther than the Germans in Poland.

Bagration (against AGC) and L'vov (against AG-North Ukraine) were interconnected offensives. There is not enough on Bagration, and as far as I have found, only one book on L'vov in english, which is a soviet general staff study from that period.



Between Bagration and Operation Cobra I wonder what it was like in the offices of the general staff. Whole army groups eliminated, and for those that survived they had lost all their materiale. Enemy armies covering a 100 miles a week. And your best hope for survival is that they run out of gas before or by the time they get to the next line of defense.
19 Jan 2015, 16:12 PM
#129
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

^

They were too busy trying to patch together a new front and dealing with L'vov...




Like "Panzer", "Festung" tends not be translated

We might also use "Hedgehog", "Stronghold", "Fortress"




Certain fortified towns and cities were designated 'fester platz'
19 Jan 2015, 19:03 PM
#130
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2015, 14:22 PMAvNY


I like the criticism of the response juxtaposed with categorizing a summation as "oversimplification".

On the day Operation Barbarossa began 3 million men crossed their demarcation line with fully loaded supply trains with direct rail and road links to their supply location and to face an outnumbered, UNlead, and poorly trained opposition. The ONLY thing they had to concern themselves with was the speed and distance of their advance.

The Allies had the opposite problem. The Russians at the beginning of Bagracion were starting from lines that had already been advanced several hundred miles. And the Western allies started D-Day landing a whole 150,000 men on a beach and using an enormous amount of additional men and material to do it. They would then have to continue to land men and their supplies over beaches or a distant and damaged port and then transport it across the damaged roads of France. The Germans ran so fast that the supplies were unable to support sustained operations past September.



Which is exactly my point. in 1939-1941 The Germans had developed a strategy that got within their opponents OODA loop. More to the point they did it with experienced troops against inexperienced troops (this makes a huge difference). In 1944 the allies had to go up against an axis that already knew what modern warfare looked like and had experienced troops to fight it.




If you truly believe that this is all there is to it you would make a very poor logistician. Having a full 100,000 sq. meter warehouse can supply very little at a time if it only has one loading bay.

England was full of supplies. But the allies knew they had to focus on getting those onto French soil and to operating units. And they did it well. The Germans thought the allied reliance on motorized transport would be a liability since horses could forage but trucks need fuel. They did not conceive of Pluto, the fuel supply system the allies set up to pump fuel over the beaches.

There is a US military adage that amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics. The corollary is a rephrasing of the old "tactics win battles but strategy wins wars" to "tactics win battles, logistics win wars."

Lots of thought goes into logistics in the US military and has ever since the creation of West Point as an academy of not just military training but of engineering and scientific training as well.



Just a few points.
The German army was everything but particularly "experienced" in the context of early WW2. The restrictions of Versailles left a vast part of their manpower pool untrained, especially among the enlisted and lower echelons of leadership, aka the "Weiße Jahrgänge", and despite the Soviet help in circumventing the restrictions imposed upon them, the Germans had exactly zilch valid experience in conducting modern mobile warfare; in fact, not a single large scale combined arms maneuver had been conducted on German soil prior to the outbreak of the war. What lessons they could derive from the Polish campaign would by their own assessment be of doubtful value against a peer opponent. The Germans by and large fully expected the French to eclipse them in overall professionalism prior to Fall Gelb.
As for the logistical situation ie. prior to Barbarossa/Normandy your assesment strikes me as a bit simplistic. The miserable Soviet road/rail quality (plus the different Russian gauge), density and general lack of infrastructure posed at least as much of a problem as the challenges of keeping an army supplied via the Channel/Atlantic ocean, especially given the vast Allied resources and shipping capacity.

As for the impact of Bagration/Cobra, well, the catastrophic German defeats did actually not come as much of a surprise to those among the General Staff, precious few as they were, who had realised the poor state of the contemporary Wehrmacht which had for all intents and purposes reverted to a pre-modern force with its limited degree of motorisation, shaky fuel supply, etc. - aka "der Krieg des armen Mannes", the "poor mans war", and that on top of being utterly outnumbered and outgunned, attempting to defend divisonal frontages of up to 30 kms with very depleted formations, which of course was a quite farcical undertaking... HG Mitte prior to Bagration was a rotten edifice if there ever was one.
19 Jan 2015, 19:06 PM
#131
avatar of somenbjorn

Posts: 923

^

Certain fortified towns and cities were designated 'fester platz'


That feeling when I understand it at a glance because Swedish is also germanic. :bananadance: Kinda how Panzerkampfwagen has always made immediate sense even though some friends who only speak english struggle with it. :P
19 Jan 2015, 19:35 PM
#132
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862



Just a few points.
The German army was everything but particularly "experienced" in the context of early WW2. The restrictions of Versailles left a vast part of their manpower pool untrained, especially among the enlisted and lower echelons of leadership, aka the "Weiße Jahrgänge", and despite the Soviet help in circumventing the restrictions imposed upon them, the Germans had exactly zilch valid experience in conducting modern mobile warfare; in fact, not a single large scale combined arms maneuver had been conducted on German soil prior to the outbreak of the war. What lessons they could derive from the Polish campaign would by their own assessment be of doubtful value against a peer opponent. The Germans by and large fully expected the French to eclipse them in overall professionalism prior to Fall Gelb.


I your point misses the obvious benefits and experience that come from doing actual operations on a massive scale and under real fire. The biggest challenge in training and in drills is making them realistic and large enough to seem real and to reveal actual problems, kinks, etc. You think your drills will come close but they never really come close to what the real thing is like. The Wehrmacht in 1939 got to invade another country whose troops were going to shoot back live ammunition. That means the Wehrmacht has more chances to see and fix mistakes in their operations and their troops get to see what real death, wounds, mobility, etc. look like. By that standard they are "veterans" in a way no Frenchman or Brit was in 1940.

It does not take long (in 1930s terms) to build up a trained military, especially not when you have a professional and experienced cadre and believe war is coming (even if not imminent). The US did it in two years and the Russians rebuilt a vast army in less time (out of necessity). The Germans started training and rearming from the early to mid 30s when most of the rest of the world did not want to take seriously the prospect of another war.



As for the logistical situation ie. prior to Barbarossa/Normandy your assesment strikes me as a bit simplistic. The miserable Soviet road/rail quality (plus the different Russian gauge), density and general lack of infrastructure posed at least as much of a problem as the challenges of keeping an army supplied via the Channel/Atlantic ocean, especially given the vast Allied resources and shipping capacity.


Resources in shipping does not help you either getting onto the land or transporting it from those landing points to an ever farther front line, especially if you have to land new troops at the same time (and then the material for those new troops, etc. etc.) To use the prior analogy, you have the 100,000 sq meter warehouse and lots of forklifts, but still only one loading bay. That is why the only major offensive in the fall of '44 was Market Garden, and even that, by the standard of most offensives was not actually great. It stands out because it was a very "dramatic" and ambitious operation with a involving massive airborne drops. And to accomplish even that the allies had to hold off on all other operations for a couple of weeks, giving the Wehrmacht desperately needed breathing room.


As for the impact of Bagration/Cobra, well, the catastrophic German defeats did actually not come as much of a surprise to those among the General Staff, precious few as they were, who had realised the poor state of the contemporary Wehrmacht which had for all intents and purposes reverted to a pre-modern force with its limited degree of motorisation, shaky fuel supply, etc. - aka "der Krieg des armen Mannes", the "poor mans war", and that on top of being utterly outnumbered and outgunned, attempting to defend divisonal frontages of up to 30 kms with very depleted formations, which of course was a quite farcical undertaking... HG Mitte prior to Bagration was a rotten edifice if there ever was one.


The contention had been that the Germans had been brilliant in defense in the latter half of the war and they only lost because that brilliant military was overwhelmed by sheer numbers in men and material. Their defense was not brilliant or they would not have had effective forces decimated one after the other. Bagration cost them about what Stalingrad did. And another 100,000 were lost in Normandy prior to the Allied breakout and the disintegration at the Falaise Gap.

It was a very expensive July.
19 Jan 2015, 20:57 PM
#133
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571



That feeling when I understand it at a glance because Swedish is also germanic. :bananadance: Kinda how Panzerkampfwagen has always made immediate sense even though some friends who only speak english struggle with it. :P


How about Russian words? I have no idea how to pronounce them much of the time, let alone spell them!
19 Jan 2015, 21:51 PM
#134
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

***Bagration was related to L'vov'. The Soviet deception strategy fooled the Germans into concentrating most of their mobile divisions in AG-NU instead of AGC, leaving AGC weaker. They attacked AGC, and then attacked AG-NU with a second assault force after the chaos.

As a whole, Northern EF and the Italian front was better defended, but this had a lot to do with terrain being unsuitable for mobile warfare. An example of a 1944 vintage 'brilliant defense' is the defense of Rumania in the spring of 1944. This cannot be explained by force correlation, but by superior leadership. These are the only ones that I believe qualify in 1944.

Overall, I don't find their defense brilliant in 44-45.

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2015, 19:35 PMAvNY
Their defense was not brilliant or they would not have had effective forces decimated one after the other.


Examples of Wehrmacht 'brilliant defense' are more commonly found in 42-43. Rzhev immediately comes to mind.
19 Jan 2015, 22:56 PM
#135
avatar of somenbjorn

Posts: 923



How about Russian words? I have no idea how to pronounce them much of the time, let alone spell them!


I studied Russian in school. :P So often no problems there either.
20 Jan 2015, 00:25 AM
#136
avatar of CasTroy

Posts: 559

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2015, 14:40 PMAvNY
(...) He made rational choices that made sense but they were based on the worng criteria. If there was a strategic choice to be made between what was best for Germany and the German people and what fit his Nazi ideology, he picked ideology every time.

Here is a great lecture from the US Army War College on this very topic (only half hour.):


If every decision of Hitler has been rational is discussable. ;)
But you´re right with the rest. Thanks for the vid-link with Dr. Roberts by the way, much appreciate it!
20 Jan 2015, 03:31 AM
#137
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3552 | Subs: 2



As for the impact of Bagration/Cobra, well, the catastrophic German defeats did actually not come as much of a surprise to those among the General Staff, precious few as they were, who had realised the poor state of the contemporary Wehrmacht which had for all intents and purposes reverted to a pre-modern force with its limited degree of motorisation, shaky fuel supply, etc. - aka "der Krieg des armen Mannes", the "poor mans war", and that on top of being utterly outnumbered and outgunned, attempting to defend divisonal frontages of up to 30 kms with very depleted formations, which of course was a quite farcical undertaking... HG Mitte prior to Bagration was a rotten edifice if there ever was one.


But it was always largely an unmotorised force.

Yes there are mobile formations, trucks and air supply


But the Germans never had enough trucks to have them for anything like all the army, nor would have had enough fuel to run them had they had.

Their attempts at air supply (Demyansk, Stalingrad, Tunisia) were only even attemptable by cannibalising the Luftwaffe's own training programmes


The vast bulk of their army marched on foot, with guns and supplies drawn by horses and reliant on railheads.


The motorised forces they did have were a bewildering and non-standard variety of mostly civilian trucks impressed or looted that were not suited to hard military use and hard to keep repaired.
20 Jan 2015, 04:35 AM
#138
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

^
Even the horse-drawn infantry divisions had various standards of mobility. The original 1941, 9-battalion divisions had thousands of horses and hundreds of vehicles. They were more mobile than the Soviet rifle units, and could outmaneuver them. By early 1942, mobility assets (horses, vehicles) were reduced by 50% outside of those earmarked for Case Blue, which had 9-battalions, 80% mobility.

By 1944 the typical infantry division increased in numbers but was less than 6 effective battalions- often just 1-4 with even less mobility than before.

Bagration was not really a tank dominated operation but was in fact mostly fought by horse-drawn Soviet rifle corps that marched from railheads in overwhelming numbers. The terrain was often poor for armor. The rifle corps, with their attached armor, were powerfully supported by artillery and air supremacy and steamrolled AGC or encircled them without stopping. The L'vov operation was more of an armored operation.
20 Jan 2015, 06:38 AM
#139
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3552 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2015, 19:35 PMAvNY


The contention had been that the Germans had been brilliant in defense in the latter half of the war and they only lost because that brilliant military was overwhelmed by sheer numbers in men and material.


But this is the usual line of the German Generals.

In part it stems from the needs of NATO who were needed a "clean" wehrmacht so they could rearm Germany; they were also going to face the Red Army whilst outnumbered if the Cold War turned hot so wanted to tap into the experience of the people who had just been fighting the Red Army

It also conveniently ignores the idea that numbers did not help France in 1940 or Russia in 1941.

20 Jan 2015, 14:56 PM
#140
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2015, 19:35 PMAvNY


I your point misses the obvious benefits and experience that come from doing actual operations on a massive scale and under real fire. The biggest challenge in training and in drills is making them realistic and large enough to seem real and to reveal actual problems, kinks, etc. You think your drills will come close but they never really come close to what the real thing is like. The Wehrmacht in 1939 got to invade another country whose troops were going to shoot back live ammunition. That means the Wehrmacht has more chances to see and fix mistakes in their operations and their troops get to see what real death, wounds, mobility, etc. look like. By that standard they are "veterans" in a way no Frenchman or Brit was in 1940.

It does not take long (in 1930s terms) to build up a trained military, especially not when you have a professional and experienced cadre and believe war is coming (even if not imminent). The US did it in two years and the Russians rebuilt a vast army in less time (out of necessity). The Germans started training and rearming from the early to mid 30s when most of the rest of the world did not want to take seriously the prospect of another war.

"Experience" can be as harmful as it can be beneficial. By virtue of historicity, it is entirely possible for campaigns to yield all the wrong lessons learnt and/or induce doctrinal stagnation, especially so if there is an outcome deemed successfull enough. This applies not only to "splendid little wars" (ie. the British military pre-the second Boer war), but also to large scale conventional conflict. Consider ie. the example of the pre-Napoleonic Prussian army, or the French military prior to the Franco-German war, whose development was arguably rather retarded than helped along by having fought two recent campaigns against peer competitors plus a number of glorified colonial policing actions... The Ottoman military pre-WW1 also makes for a particularly good example, and I could go on at length here.
Even in the realm of infanteristic combat, experience need not necessarily correlate to competence. If you ever had the displeasure of witnessing (at least some) African paramilitaries in action, I guess you'd agree. The Germans started rearming at scale only from 1935 onwards btw, and had a giant deficit to bridge to start with. One of the reasons for the scepticism of the higher German command echelons vis the Westfeldzug (look up the Generals' meeting from August 4th, 1938) was owed to the fact that they felt everything but thoroughly prepared for it, as indeed they were not.
Resources in shipping does not help you either getting onto the land or transporting it from those landing points to an ever farther front line, especially if you have to land new troops at the same time (and then the material for those new troops, etc. etc.) To use the prior analogy, you have the 100,000 sq meter warehouse and lots of forklifts, but still only one loading bay. That is why the only major offensive in the fall of '44 was Market Garden, and even that, by the standard of most offensives was not actually great. It stands out because it was a very "dramatic" and ambitious operation with a involving massive airborne drops. And to accomplish even that the allies had to hold off on all other operations for a couple of weeks, giving the Wehrmacht desperately needed breathing room.

Well yes, even the Allies were running out of logistical steam in the fall of '44, but consider this in the context of the logistical possibilities possessed by their adversaries, which amounted to quantité negligable in comparison. Something like the Red Ball Express was quite simply out of the question for the Wehrmacht since even in their heyday, they never remotely had the same degree of motorisation and relative resources at their disposal.
Don't get me wrong, this is not meant to diminish the Western powers' logistical archievement in Normandy, after all it was the largest amphibical op in the history of mankind.

The contention had been that the Germans had been brilliant in defense in the latter half of the war and they only lost because that brilliant military was overwhelmed by sheer numbers in men and material. Their defense was not brilliant or they would not have had effective forces decimated one after the other. Bagration cost them about what Stalingrad did. And another 100,000 were lost in Normandy prior to the Allied breakout and the disintegration at the Falaise Gap.

It was a very expensive July.

I don't think anybody would seriously wish to dispute that "sheer numbers in men and material" was the single largest factor in the eventual Allied victory, and if he would, I think he would face a very much uphill battle in construing a plausible argument to that end. However, the fact of overwhelming Allied numerical/material superiority does not necessarily prove or disprove any particular defensive "brillance" - or lack thereof in the German camp.
Considering the two operations in question beforehand (Normandy/Bagration),
in Bagration, at the strategic echelon, you have the archmistake of leaving HG Mitte overextended in an indefensible position for essentially political reasons combined with an unhealthy dose of wishful thinking, ie. choosing to believe FHO despite ample evidence from local commanders and HUM/SIGINT over the Soviet buildup, thereby misjudging the direction of the Soviet thrust, leading to inevitable catastrophy.
In Normandy, the constellation is not fundamentally dissimilar, insofar as the leadership failed to see the writing on the wall and still insisted on attempting to contain the Allied landings forward even though the attritional picture had clearly become unsustainable and it could only be a question of time when this unfavourable situation would translate into large scale Allied operational maneuver - the rest is history as they say, the German lines being unhinged and the retreat devolving into a general sauve-qui-peut all the way through France.
Still, given the asymetry of forces and the overall limitations of the Wehrmacht, its performance at the tactical and operational plane remained surprisingly credible; even managing to contain the Allies for as long as they did and inflicting equivalent losses was a considerable feat by any standard, and while July was a costly month indeed for the Wehrmacht, and Bagration was undoubtedly the most traumatic defeat suffered by German arms in the 20th century, it was costlier still for the Soviets.
But it was always largely an unmotorised force. [...]
This has essentially already been answered. The Wehrmacht was even at its zenith indeed always an army characterised by a strong asymetry in mobility and operational tempo between its mechanised maneuver element and really, the rest of it, however, it suffered a stark, gradual degradation over the course of the war, while its opponents were either fully mechanised from start to finish(Commonwealth/US) or continually improved in that regard. (the RKKA).
PAGES (14)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Livestreams

unknown 8
Russian Federation 6
United States 3
unknown 1

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

880 users are online: 1 member and 879 guests
Jolliyastefan
0 post in the last 24h
8 posts in the last week
34 posts in the last month
Registered members: 49108
Welcome our newest member, Jolliyastefan
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM