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Does the Zis really need barrage?

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3 Jun 2014, 19:28 PM
#41
avatar of CookiezNcreem
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jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jun 2014, 17:25 PMAbdul


It's situational, but often your grens cant walk straight in front of it and its support because they get suppressed by a FLANKABLE MAXIM for example, while the zis barrages support weapons and fights off scout cars and tanks. So the maxim and 60 muni barrage is giving it a Combined arms role.


3 Jun 2014, 19:34 PM
#42
avatar of Zupadupadude

Posts: 618

Lmao, are you guys seriously calling the fucking ZiS OP of all things?
3 Jun 2014, 19:35 PM
#43
avatar of TNrg

Posts: 640

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jun 2014, 15:43 PMBurts
yes it does, it's an artirelly piece.


IRL the PaK 40 was also used as an indirect fire weapon sometimes, btw :o
3 Jun 2014, 19:43 PM
#44
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

Abdul, lots of units can do more than one thing. It's not a bad thing. 60 munitions is not cheap considering how easy to dodge the barrage is. The Zis makes up for its mediocre anti tank with some optional anti inf, seems fair to me.


ZiS trades mid game performance with it's barrage for late game viability with reduced RoF and Target Weakpoint. It's asymmetric balance. Same reason that Grens have a non-doctrinal weapons upgrade and Cons don't.


I understand your point, but I dont think that is a good application, I wish they applied that by making the zis a little cheaper and with less pop cap, but maybe Relic's idea was to include barrage instead and this way make it less spam-able. On its own barrage is a bad ability, that I would love see removed with mortar being improved for example.
3 Jun 2014, 19:52 PM
#45
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

love how you repeat bad game design, bad mechanic, bad game design, bad mechanic like it's agreed upon by everybody. zis barrage seems ok to me and doesnt feel like a bad mechanic. and referring zis as one unit army is too much of a hyperbole.


quote where I say that
3 Jun 2014, 19:53 PM
#46
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

ZIS3 gun is a one man army. It can deal with everything on its own with his AP and HE rounds. All it needs is some support from some maxims to deal with flanking infantry, some guards or mines to disable tanks so they don't move out of the cone, some conscripts or an M3 for reinforcement, and a T34 or something to deal with the infantry that are not killed by the extremely hard to dodge non-tracking barrage.


hey man, you are still bitter about that one game?
3 Jun 2014, 19:58 PM
#47
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jun 2014, 19:53 PMAbdul


hey man, you are still bitter about that one game?


What game?
3 Jun 2014, 20:01 PM
#48
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896



What game?


the rails and metal game with elpandie where I flanked your SUs and you got so mad you quite on your mate. Boy, you sound so similar in that post.
3 Jun 2014, 20:12 PM
#49
avatar of Tristan44

Posts: 915

You guys mention target weak point like it actually works. Lol. Maybe If IT WORKED pak 40 would be awesome.

I personally love the barrage ability. Fire at support teams through fog of war, when they move send in your troops and bam, soviet smash through a German defense
3 Jun 2014, 20:18 PM
#50
avatar of Kreatiir

Posts: 2819

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jun 2014, 20:01 PMAbdul


the rails and metal game with elpandie where I flanked your SUs and you got so mad you quite on your mate. Boy, you sound so similar in that post.


Doesn't sound like Hank.
3 Jun 2014, 20:21 PM
#51
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jun 2014, 19:52 PMAbdul


quote where I say that


post #13,14, strongly implied in 44, and generally implied in all your posts. also lovvvvvce how most people on this thread are giving you perfectly valid counter arguments to your original post but in reply, you just go back to the same thing you said on your first post. everybody's just wrong and you are the only one who sees the truth, what's right and what's wrong, and what the game is supposed to be.
3 Jun 2014, 20:21 PM
#52
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896



Doesn't sound like Hank.


Ask Elpandie (Joery) and Space Dog (Arno) :)
3 Jun 2014, 20:24 PM
#53
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896



post #13,14, strongly implied in 44, and generally implied in all your posts. also lovvvvvce how most people on this thread are giving you perfectly valid counter arguments to your original post but in reply, you just go back to the same thing you said on your first post. everybody's just wrong and you are the only one who sees the truth, what's right and what's wrong, and what the game is supposed to be.


How about you go through the trouble of quoting me, maybe then you will know not to open your big mouth and say stuff that is completely not true.
3 Jun 2014, 20:49 PM
#54
avatar of urb111

Posts: 32

lol

is this thread for real or you guys trolling?
3 Jun 2014, 20:51 PM
#55
avatar of DanielD

Posts: 783 | Subs: 3

Abdul you still haven't explained WHY the barrage is a bad ability to have on the unit. As others have said, it is 60muni, which is a lot, and it is easy to dodge. It has its uses though, and adds an interesting element to soviet play.
3 Jun 2014, 20:53 PM
#56
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 927

The barrage is just an other big middle finger to the worthless MG42 team.
3 Jun 2014, 21:00 PM
#57
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

ZiS barrage is ok. However, ZiS often oneshots infantry models, at least far more often then the Pak, and this is somewhat annoying - especially if you amove a sniper on it. ;)Chance of that happening should maybe be toned down somewhat.
3 Jun 2014, 21:39 PM
#58
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jun 2014, 20:01 PMAbdul


the rails and metal game with elpandie where I flanked your SUs and you got so mad you quite on your mate. Boy, you sound so similar in that post.


Ah yeah you mean the match during the march deployment patch were the balance was worse than ever and you managed to win with blitzing tigers?

Ah well, I guess I should have made more ZIS guns, I heard they are a 1 man army type of unit. #ZIS3spamnewmeta
3 Jun 2014, 21:53 PM
#59
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

This thread sucks. Time to drop some bears in it.

4 Jun 2014, 04:37 AM
#60
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

Abdul you still haven't explained WHY the barrage is a bad ability to have on the unit. As others have said, it is 60muni, which is a lot, and it is easy to dodge. It has its uses though, and adds an interesting element to soviet play.


Its mainly this part I mention in the first post:

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jun 2014, 15:35 PMAbdul
I keep seeing the Zis being sent in front of an mg42 or mortar squad and start firing its barrage forcing that unit to retreat. The way its being used like that reminds me of the maxim at the beginning of the game.

Back then you could send it into the fog of war, find a deployed mg42 and manage to suppress it first. That was bad game play and I kind of see a similar thing happening with the Zis where it's being sent solo to take down a deployed support unit.

This makes me wonder what was the developers' original purpose for the barrage ability? Do they consider what I describe above proper and balanced role for this ability?
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