Commanders

Hard to vote cause I don't see my favorite commander in those lists. He's called Advanced Assault Support Counterattack Shock Rifle Combined Mechanized Motor Disruption Heavy Frontline Reserve Army Urban Tactics Industry Commander. He's the best.

I'm surprised to see so many votes on conscript support tactics being bad. I mean, sure, in this patch it's bad because conscripts are bad at the moment. But before that it was an amazing doctrine.

I'm surprised to see so many votes on conscript support tactics being bad. I mean, sure, in this patch it's bad because conscripts are bad at the moment. But before that it was an amazing doctrine.

Past means nothing

The problem with NKVD is that it has only passive and non-lethal munition abilities except for one.

- Rapid conscription is too expensive or not active long enough to be useful.
- Fear Propaganda takes too long to arrive and is too expensive considering you could be using Incendiary Barrage for almost the same price and inflict damage.

The commander is too munition heavy as anyone playing with mines (which are a must currently) will know.

A suggestion to fix it would be to replace either the reconnaissance run or rapid conscription with an ability that allows for additional munitions (one could also replace the IL2 run since it goes against the theme of non-lethal support abilities). Personally, I'd replace the IL2 with mark target (since it goes better with the theme of non-lethal support munition abilities) and replace Rapid Conscription with one of the following abilities.

a) Increased funding: The NKVD's activities are henceforth supported by an extra income on munitions of 10% (4 CPs)
b) Increased efficiency: All munition OPs generate 20% more munitions (4 CPs)
c) Miscalculations: The current 5 year plan has left excess resources that can be utilised by the NKVD (100 MP for 75 Munitions; 4 CPs)
d) Infiltration: Engineers gain the ability to construct a camouflaged radio transmitter in munition sectors. Should the sector fall into enemy hands, we will now be able to intercept their supply routes and cut supplies from that sector by 50%. During those raids 20% of the value of the intercepted supplies will be destroyed, the remaining supplies will be transferred to support the efforts of the NKVD. (2 CPs, 50 MP to construct)
e) Shifted priorities: The ability can be toggled. As long as it is not turned off it will exchange 2 fuel per minute for 5 munitions (worse exchange rate than Redistribute Resources due to the fact that it works without the need to save up; 2CPs)

I'm surprised to see so many votes on conscript support tactics being bad. I mean, sure, in this patch it's bad because conscripts are bad at the moment. But before that it was an amazing doctrine.

Conscripts are bad, therefore doctrine supporting the spam of them is bad.
Soviet industry also was amazing doctrine before, well, not anymore.

You know, things change over time.

I try yesterday sov industry in 2vs2 on an open map (minsk). Not so bad.

T1 (penal/M3) / T3 (T34/M5)/ KV8 / KV2 for me and T1/T2/T4/IS2 for my teammate. It work quite well.

Of course this strat need an open area map like minsk or moscow. Spam grenader would have counter it but it counters MG42 and ost camping. Your are quite good in late game (IS2/KV2/KV8) and your good mobility in early game allow some good moves.

And it's funny to play ^^

Incredible how this system is such a failure for all parties.

I would like to see Relic's data on commanders, probably 70% of them are never used, so much waste of time and resources.

Great post.

That'd be nice if you put the abilities in brackets. Most of these commanders I don't remember which abilities had.

something like:
Guard motor company (Guards/Mark/Repair/T34/85)

NOTICE FOR ANYONE WHO DIDN'T READ MY FIRST POST:

YOU CAN FIND OUT WHAT EACH COMMANDER'S ABILITIES ARE WITH THIS EASY TOOL:
http://commanders.rogerholmgren.com/
http://commanders.rogerholmgren.com/
http://commanders.rogerholmgren.com/

honestly,you guys seem to be rather simple minded. Just because a commander is not used does not mean its bad.

I can't tell you one single commander except german infantry or NKVD that is bad.
They simply suit different play styles.

They suit playstyles that don't suit winning.

There's no reason to go for German Defense doctrine over any other pak43 doctrine, all of them are better than this one.

There's no reason to go for Shock Motor Heavy, Mechanized Support is plain better as an isu doctrine.

There's fairly little reason to go for Anti-infantry tactics or Terror, Shock rifle offers the important bits with the versatility of the IS2.

There's no reason to go conscript support, all other ppsh doctrines offer more useful things

While other doctrines don't offer the same choices, Soviet Defensive has no reason to exist in the current balance because it wastes commander abilities to offer you a bunch of badly performing units with identical roles to T2 ones. Urban Defense is a one trick pony with the FHQ, and that again has no real place in the current gameplay.

Overall the most problematic commanders are definitely on the soviet side, german commanders are a lot better because germans have a better base unit selection, though it's very easy to split them into tiers of usefulness regardless.

They suit playstyles that don't suit winning.

There's no reason to go for German Defense doctrine over any other pak43 doctrine, all of them are better than this one.

There's no reason to go for Shock Motor Heavy, Mechanized Support is plain better as an isu doctrine.

There's fairly little reason to go for Anti-infantry tactics or Terror, Shock rifle offers the important bits with the versatility of the IS2.

There's no reason to go conscript support, all other ppsh doctrines offer more useful things

While other doctrines don't offer the same choices, Soviet Defensive has no reason to exist in the current balance because it wastes commander abilities to offer you a bunch of badly performing units with identical roles to T2 ones. Urban Defense is a one trick pony with the FHQ, and that again has no real place in the current gameplay.

Overall the most problematic commanders are definitely on the soviet side, german commanders are a lot better because germans have a better base unit selection, though it's very easy to split them into tiers of usefulness regardless.

Those opinions are very subjective, yes soviet community doc might not be good, but not because that it's bad, it's just that rifle grenades right now are crazy. Conscript support? Why is it bad? It gives your conscripts alot of versatility. Shock motor heavy vs mechanized support? Why are shocks troops bad? That is a very subjective opinion on whether someone prefers shock troops or gaurds. On a close range map like stalingrad, i would much rather choose shock troops over gaurds. Mark vehicle? Well since the isu-152 is getting at buff next patch my guess is that the mark vehicle is sort of going to be overkill next patch, the ISU-152 is another thing. It not being viable is going to be addressed in the next patch. Right now the ISU-152 is worse in anti tank than the IS-2 for some reason...

Why is german defensive doc bad? Tank traps have low health, but that still doesn't make them useless, for example festung armor has a pak 43, and has railway arty instead of sector arty, in my opinion,sector arty is way better, since it basically shuts down an entire sector for a minute.

I find it impossible to force myself to memorize which commander is which.

They lack any personality or distinction, are hard to identify by the "logos" or faces, the names are often not even informative in the slightest and sound like just random words thrown together.
For example, why is "Assault support" not called the opel blitz commander instead?
Why are there 38 different commanders to begin with?

The poll should indeed have a not sure or don't know option

Those opinions are very subjective, yes soviet community doc might not be good, but not because that it's bad, it's just that rifle grenades right now are crazy.

Even if you removed riflenades from the game, you are still sacrificing all your commander abilities for 1. A super bad ZIS for 200mp 2. An expensive maxim that has the ability to kill T2 vehicles if your opponent drives straight down the firing cone and you saw it coming beforehand 3. 120mm and 4. A really bad version of smines. With the drop in T2 cost these units are worse than ever, and they never were any good after the initial halving of the dshk dps.

Conscript support? Why is it bad? It gives your conscripts alot of versatility.

Rapid conscription is extremely gimmicky and pretty much never worth using over any other kind of munition ability. Hit the dirt is just yellow cover that is asking for a tank squish or riflenade. ppsh are a weapon you're better off without. All this really leaves is incendiary barrage (available in plenty of other commanders) and conscript repair (ditto).

Even before when ppsh was still useful and by extension hit the dirt was a bit better, this doctrine still didn't offer anything over the more versatile ppsh doctrines that gave you a unit call-in.

Shock motor heavy vs mechanized support? Why are shocks troops bad? That is a very subjective opinion on whether someone prefers shock troops or gaurds. On a close range map like stalingrad, i would much rather choose shock troops over gaurds. Mark vehicle? Well since the isu-152 is getting at buff next patch my guess is that the mark vehicle is sort of going to be overkill next patch, the ISU-152 is another thing. It not being viable is going to be addressed in the next patch. Right now the ISU-152 is worse in anti tank than the IS-2 for some reason...

Because they are, sorry. Shocks are the most worthless unit in the game for cost right now. But let's ignore that and pretend they're useful: Mark target is the single most powerful antitank ability soviets get. On the other hand armored detection is among the worst commander abilities in the game, it's just a waste of muni that does nothing you couldn't do by just listening to game sounds, looking at the graphics in the fog or just using the 3 times cheaper and twice as effective tracking on several soviet units at veterancy 1. So basically it's shocks+conscript repair vs guards+mark target+AT gun camo (arguably fairly useless). There is just no contest if you ask me, just mark target alone is better than shocks+conscript repair combined, then you get guards on top of that.

Why is german defensive doc bad? Tank traps have low health, but that still doesn't make them useless, for example festung armor has a pak 43, and has railway arty instead of sector arty, in my opinion,sector arty is way better, since it basically shuts down an entire sector for a minute.

No, their health does in fact make them useless. A tank trap that dies to two shots from a tank isn't useful in the least. Sector artillery is the easiest to dodge artillery in the game, and is extremely map specific to boot. Trenches are arguably better right now when conscripts are so weak that molotovs are rarer. Of course there is actually no reason to make them because soviets have a far easier time to get stuff out of them than germans so they're just a risk. And hull down is the least used german commander ability period, and mostly for good reason (while the bonuses are ok, it just doesn't fit any gameplay situation you realistically find yourself in)

Sector artillery doesn't shut down any sectors, as long as your units are constantly moving and don't have another unit following them in the case of infantry (you can have two or even three vehicles trailing each other because they're much faster), sector artillery will in fact never hit a thing. It has no movement prediction whatsoever.

I find it impossible to force myself to memorize which commander is which.

They lack any personality or distinction, are hard to identify by the "logos" or faces, the names are often not even informative in the slightest and sound like just random words thrown together.
For example, why is "Assault support" not called the opel blitz commander instead?
Why are there 38 different commanders to begin with?

The poll should indeed have a not sure or don't know option

Again............I based this poll off this easy to read Commander website: http://commanders.rogerholmgren.com/

Again............I based this poll off this easy to read Commander website: http://commanders.rogerholmgren.com/

Yeah I read that in your original post and I've actually been visiting the site regularly for reasons I explained previously.
I still can't express my opinion on this matter with the given options so I suggested a change

An interesting poll nevertheless, will now refrain from more off topic

Even if you removed riflenades from the game, you are still sacrificing all your commander abilities for 1. A super bad ZIS for 200mp 2. An expensive maxim that has the ability to kill T2 vehicles if your opponent drives straight down the firing cone and you saw it coming beforehand 3. 120mm and 4. A really bad version of smines. With the drop in T2 cost these units are worse than ever, and they never were any good after the initial halving of the dshk dps.



Rapid conscription is extremely gimmicky and pretty much never worth using over any other kind of munition ability. Hit the dirt is just yellow cover that is asking for a tank squish or riflenade. ppsh are a weapon you're better off without. All this really leaves is incendiary barrage (available in plenty of other commanders) and conscript repair (ditto).

Even before when ppsh was still useful and by extension hit the dirt was a bit better, this doctrine still didn't offer anything over the more versatile ppsh doctrines that gave you a unit call-in.



Because they are, sorry. Shocks are the most worthless unit in the game for cost right now. But let's ignore that and pretend they're useful: Mark target is the single most powerful antitank ability soviets get. On the other hand armored detection is among the worst commander abilities in the game, it's just a waste of muni that does nothing you couldn't do by just listening to game sounds, looking at the graphics in the fog or just using the 3 times cheaper and twice as effective tracking on several soviet units at veterancy 1. So basically it's shocks+conscript repair vs guards+mark target+AT gun camo (arguably fairly useless). There is just no contest if you ask me, just mark target alone is better than shocks+conscript repair combined, then you get guards on top of that.



No, their health does in fact make them useless. A tank trap that dies to two shots from a tank isn't useful in the least. Sector artillery is the easiest to dodge artillery in the game, and is extremely map specific to boot. Trenches are arguably better right now when conscripts are so weak that molotovs are rarer. Of course there is actually no reason to make them because soviets have a far easier time to get stuff out of them than germans so they're just a risk. And hull down is the least used german commander ability period, and mostly for good reason (while the bonuses are ok, it just doesn't fit any gameplay situation you realistically find yourself in)

Sector artillery doesn't shut down any sectors, as long as your units are constantly moving and don't have another unit following them in the case of infantry (you can have two or even three vehicles trailing each other because they're much faster), sector artillery will in fact never hit a thing. It has no movement prediction whatsoever.

Why are shocks bad? I use them often and with great sucess, they are not mindless units that you use to charge, instead they are very lethal flanking units. Conscript repairs is a good ability for your ISU-152, because a fausted ISU-152 is a dead ISU-152, and with conscript repair kit, you can make sure that your ISU-152 is always operational.

Why are shocks bad? I use them often and with great sucess, they are not mindless units that you use to charge, instead they are very lethal flanking units. Conscript repairs is a good ability for your ISU-152, because a fausted ISU-152 is a dead ISU-152, and with conscript repair kit, you can make sure that your ISU-152 is always operational.

If you are getting fausted with your ISU152 enough that you need conscript repair of all things with it, you are doing something horribly wrong with it. It doesn't have the health or armor (compared to price, that is) to be in situations that risky that often, and you should be primarily aiming at any closeby grens and thus stopping fausts anyway because it's not that effective as antitank (atleast without mark) and has very bad accuracy long range.

Shocks are bad because anything, literally anything, of similar cost from the germans counters them. Grens? Check, two grens beat shocks hard even without weapon upgrades. Single LMG gren beats them. 1 PG beats them at any range. 2 pios beat them. Assgrens are 50:50 at beating them if fight starts from long range because they do damage from there and shocks don't. Then you factor in the new 222 and shocks are just bleeding manpower all day long.

And to top the fact that shocks get countered by any of these, their damage on the move & damage above range 10 (less than molotov throw) is so bad that they will never kill anything that retreats. So even with a perfect flank, as long as your opponent just hits the retreat button instead of staying around, shocks will do absolutely no MP damage. All they're good for is the nades...and guard nades are better.

If you are getting fausted with your ISU152 enough that you need conscript repair of all things with it, you are doing something horribly wrong with it. It doesn't have the health or armor (compared to price, that is) to be in situations that risky that often, and you should be primarily aiming at any closeby grens and thus stopping fausts anyway because it's not that effective as antitank (atleast without mark) and has very bad accuracy long range.

Shocks are bad because anything, literally anything, of similar cost from the germans counters them. Grens? Check, two grens beat shocks hard even without weapon upgrades. Single LMG gren beats them. 1 PG beats them at any range. 2 pios beat them. Assgrens are 50:50 at beating them if fight starts from long range because they do damage from there and shocks don't. Then you factor in the new 222 and shocks are just bleeding manpower all day long.

And to top the fact that shocks get countered by any of these, their damage on the move & damage above range 10 (less than molotov throw) is so bad that they will never kill anything that retreats. So even with a perfect flank, as long as your opponent just hits the retreat button instead of staying around, shocks will do absolutely no MP damage. All they're good for is the nades...and guard nades are better.

We seem do be playing two different games. In my game, shocks obliterate pgs, unless the fight starts from long range, in which case i will throw a smoke grenade to cover my approach. 2 grens, unless you just charge mindlessly, will get forced away, i guess you must be trying the old just run up with your shocks without using cover strat. It doesn't work anymore. Rangers in Vcoh also couldn't do that.
ISU-152 does get fausted often, because you know, after saving up for a 260+ fuel tank, you inevitably will have lost atleast some map control, in which case you will need to attack. And since theres alot of houses/ trees that block line of sight, very often an ISU-152 can indeed get fausted, or sometimes grens can just walk right in front of it and faust because ISU-152 missed.

Okay,maybe my isu-152 won't get fausted often. But i'd much rather have a ISU-152 with a functioning engine rather than an ISU-152 with a demaged engine but with mark vehicle againt's a blitzing P IV.

Then again discussing ISU-152 is pointless since ISU-152 in its own right now is a horrible vehicle, it's not very good for anything at all. I prefer an IS-2 which costs less in every single situation.

I'm surprised to see so many votes on conscript support tactics being bad. I mean, sure, in this patch it's bad because conscripts are bad at the moment. But before that it was an amazing doctrine.

+1

I love this 'mander. Because I like T34s and I like playing TigerRam2. When conscripts didn't suck, I could have like 4-5 T34s constantly being repaired by my con hordes, and drop the firebomb thingy on defended positions. It was good.