The More I Play Soviets the More I Like It

Which is still less fuel than t3+t4 now, by a lot, and a less than 2 su85's. That's what you give up right now by getting the hard counter to P4, you give up getting to ram anything that gets near the 85 (unless you pick one of two doctrines). You are supposed to have to make tradeoffs as Soviet, I am not arguing that you are interested in nerfing Germans.

I agree that fuel requirements would be a major point in balancing an idea like this. That said, I understand the design theory behind the soviets is to make tradeoffs, but I just do not believe it makes for compelling gameplay. The reason the germans are so popular and fun to play is because of their consistency and ability to bring the tactical concept of combined arms to the battlefield at every stage of the game. It's thoroughly satisfying and feels like how the game should be played. With that, soviets and their either/or tech system really fails to capture that element of play.

To me the soviets feel like a poor mix of coh1 PE and Brits. The either/or nature of the PE tech, and the lack of proper combined arms from Brits. It's just a bad place, and while soviets can do quite well in early and mid game, the lack of a full arsenal for combined tactics in the mid to late game is why they seem to come up short, and why they are so heavily reliant on their commander call-ins. These shortcomings could easily be fixed by moving the SU76 and T34 and adjusting tech costs.

Look at it this way, why build a T70 when you can save a little more and get a T34? Why build an SU76 when you can save a little more and get an SU85? The either/or nature not only limits their ability to react to an battle but it also directly lowers the value of units like the T70 and SU76 when their superior equivalent is available in the same building for only a little more fuel. Imagine if the germans had the P4 and Panther in T4; no one would build the P4 if they have they can afford to wait for a Panther, nor would they want to, because by the time you get T4 the match is reaching a stage where the P4 is less effective. This is similar to the stage at which the T70 and SU76 become available, there is only a very small window of time during which these unit can play a role on the battlefield, and you might as well just wait that time for a T34 or SU85.

I agree that fuel requirements would be a major point in balancing an idea like this. That said, I understand the design theory behind the soviets is to make tradeoffs, but I just do not believe it makes for compelling gameplay. The reason the germans are so popular and fun to play is because of their consistency and ability to bring the tactical concept of combined arms to the battlefield at every stage of the game. It's thoroughly satisfying and feels like how the game should be played. With that, soviets and their either/or tech system really fails to capture that element of play.

To me the soviets feel like a poor mix of coh1 PE and Brits. The either/or nature of the PE tech, and the lack of proper combined arms from Brits. It's just a bad place, and while soviets can do quite well in early and mid game, the lack of a full arsenal for combined tactics in the mid to late game is why they seem to come up short, and why they are so heavily reliant on their commander call-ins. These shortcomings could easily be fixed by moving the SU76 and T34 and adjusting tech costs.

Look at it this way, why build a T70 when you can save a little more and get a T34? Why build an SU76 when you can save a little more and get an SU85? The either/or nature not only limits their ability to react to an battle but it also directly lowers the value of units like the T70 and SU76 when their superior equivalent is available in the same building for only a little more fuel. Imagine if the germans had the P4 and Panther in T4; no one would build the P4 if they have they can afford to wait for a Panther, nor would they want to, because by the time you get T4 the match is reaching a stage where the P4 is less effective. This is similar to the stage at which the T70 and SU76 become available, there is only a very small window of time during which these unit can play a role on the battlefield, and you might as well just wait that time for a T34 or SU85.

Soviets are not a great faction, design wise, but you are attempting to fix that by giving them everything they want in a one stop shop.

Yes, it would be more fun to have a broader range of units, but the faction cannot support it unfortunately.

I think its a bit too late since the thread derail into something else, but i have the same feeling.

Winning as soviets feels more rewarding than winning as Ost. In fact, i sometimes feel bad for my opponents : /

Great thread (if it makes people belive its good to play soviets at the moment as its takes quite a while to get a game as germans).

Great thread (if it makes people belive its good to play soviets at the moment as its takes quite a while to get a game as germans).

your win ratios are similar for both factions. if you only have 50% wins as germans in your provisional games, how easy can they be?

As easy as 2 pios, 3 0CP assgrens and bunkers.

maybe you should make a guide about how to play germans. youve played 16 provisional games with them and lost 9 of them, so youre clearly qualified.

eagerly awaiting the "i dont play them because theyre too easy" response

As easy as 2 pios, 3 0CP assgrens and bunkers.

Make flamer cars.

Make flamer cars.

Hard countered by MP40's , you also loose alot of map control because of the MP cost.

I don't play them because it doesn't align with my play style. I enjoy playing as the underdog, no matter the game title. I'm pointing at the elephant in the room and that is 0CP Assgrens. Interesting enough that it has been forgotten for two patch cycles now.

So before you call out folks on their play styles, win/loss ratios remember one thing very clearly. The casual player paid for this game and make up the majority of the player base. Balancing this game to the hardcore 100 may float your boat but the title will suffer over the long run. I'd love to see the churn rate of folks who try multiplayer once and than never again.

Eagerly awaiting the "i'm a beta tester that knows best about all play styles" response. Oh wait, you've played zero 1 v 1's as Soviets. My bad.

Hard countered by MP40's , you also loose alot of map control because of the MP cost.

"Hard countered" yeaahh, no. It costs, what, 230 MP and like 10 fuel? Just hold on as best as you can until the flamer car has arrived. You can regain map control after it has arrived because he has nothing but assgrens, pios and bunkers.

Before you're gonna insult me claiming I'm a German fanboy, I play Soviet most of the time on MP.

I dunno about you but I can kill assgrens and pios easily with a flamer car. If you can't, then you must be microing it pretty terribly.

Penals + flamer upgrade do a good job as well; without the scout car.

"Hard countered" yeaahh, no. It costs, what, 230 MP and like 10 fuel? Just hold on as best as you can until the flamer car has arrived. You can regain map control after it has arrived because he has nothing but assgrens, pios and bunkers.

Before you're gonna insult me claiming I'm a German fanboy, I play Soviet most of the time on MP.

I dunno about you but I can kill assgrens and pios easily with a flamer car. If you can't, then you must be microing it pretty terribly.

Is it a new trend on COH2.org to state that one is not fanboy in advance? Im fine with your argumentation although i slightly disagree on some points. Its kind of sad though to have to justify yourself in advance isnt it?

Is it a new trend on COH2.org to state that one is not fanboy in advance? Im fine with your argumentation although i slightly disagree on some points. Its kind of sad though to have to justify yourself in advance isnt it?

Yeah, it is, lol.

Soviets are not a great faction, design wise, but you are attempting to fix that by giving them everything they want in a one stop shop.

Yes, it would be more fun to have a broader range of units, but the faction cannot support it unfortunately.

I don't see how the faction cannot support it? Certainly such changes would require some balancing, but the Germans get everything they want in a one stop shop at each stage of tech, not because Reric prefers the Germans, but because combined arms makes sense.

Either way, the factions can remain asymmetrical, and still maintain a combined arms approach to play; just look at the Wermacht and USA factions of CoH1, completely different play styles, but each tech level provided a "one stop shop" of units that were useful at each particular stage of battle. I see zero issues in providing both armies with the ability to field combined arms in CoH2, and see every reason to abandon the current either/or concept with soviets.

Forcing one army to give up a combined arms approach is counter to all modern military logic, and is in no way close to good game design. There is a reason the Germans are not only better, but also more fun to play, and that is their ability to bring modern combined arms tactics at every single stage of the game.

The more I play Soviets the more I Facepalm
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flamer cars still a reasonable counter to MP40s, because you can kite, go off repair, and when they are forced to retreat, you charge after and squad wipe.

Assgrens. Assgrens are fun. I enjoy playing against assgrens. They have obvious and fun counters.

Now, G43 and LMG spam I'm just about to rage uninstall over. You can't raise the munitions cost high enough, imho.

The really hilarious thing is that whatever you do as Soviets - T1 or T2 - can be countered at 3 CPs by a) having a mortar halftrack doctrine or b) having a G43 doctrine, or just spamming LMGs. LMG spam is much preferable as they have to stop to fire and thus Soviet micro is worth a half-penny.

"In another world, it'd be funny." -- Stereolab, song 'Noise of Carpet.'

I'm enjoying the patch a *lor* more than I thought I would... I was worried that the increased lethality of infantry would just mean that my poor unit control would be more punished. But I'm finding that I'm actually doing OK - I've converted to Penals, primarily, as my main infantry, and 2 Penals (I have been known to make 4 or 5) can take out their weight in... almost any Ostheer infantry, especially with their Flamer upgrade. Adding that Satchels now one-shot bunkers, and they are quite a viable choice, in my eyes.

I do wish Scout Cars hadn't been made even *harder* to use, but I think I'll manage somehow

some posts that were off topic were invised did so it doesn't go to shit later when im not looking again.

so without further ado...