Login

russian armor

Making Soviets more Soviety

30 Mar 2014, 13:48 PM
#21
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

Cons don't need to be even with grens. Squad wipes for grens have only gotten worse since the patch, a problem soviet players don't have to deal with on nearly the same level. Cons vs Grens is balanced.


Because squad wipes happen 24/7...... Russians do have squad wipe problems (mainly from mortars and brumbars) but that is beside the point.

Many people including from Relic have said you need 2 conscripts for every one gren. That in it self is fine, but then why do 2 conscripts cost 480mp vs the 240 for the grens. I (and I guess many others) are fine with conscripts being inferior to Grens but the price needs to reflect that.
30 Mar 2014, 14:31 PM
#22
avatar of Aurgelwulf

Posts: 184



Because squad wipes happen 24/7...... Russians do have squad wipe problems (mainly from mortars and brumbars) but that is beside the point.

Many people including from Relic have said you need 2 conscripts for every one gren. That in it self is fine, but then why do 2 conscripts cost 480mp vs the 240 for the grens. I (and I guess many others) are fine with conscripts being inferior to Grens but the price needs to reflect that.


No, it's not beside the point. The grens have four man squads, they get wiped significantly more than their Russian counterparts and if Peter wants to run that statement by his data analysts he'd see it was right. The manpower hit from losing a gren squad can swing games into the soviet players favour so it's perfectly right that the squad has something extra to make up for that.



Balanced? I had 3 Cons vs 3 Grens in the mid of Semois today. All within green cover. Grens didnt lose a single model.


Bullshit. Lets see that replay.
30 Mar 2014, 14:56 PM
#23
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871



No, it's not beside the point. The grens have four man squads, they get wiped significantly more than their Russian counterparts and if Peter wants to run that statement by his data analysts he'd see it was right. The manpower hit from losing a gren squad can swing games into the soviet players favour so it's perfectly right that the squad has something extra to make up for that.



What do you mean something extra? They already have something extra. They have much better dps, their AT nade is so much more useful than molotov (and you don't need to specifically research it). Panzerfaust also is the same, you don't need to specifically research it. It's vet 1 ability is also more useful than the conscripts. Then they also get an LMG42 upgrade that increases their dps a fair amount, especially at range. Conscripts can get PPSH via a doctrine (yours is free, built into the core game) but it ruins their dps at anything other than close range..What more do you want? The nature of conscripts and many soviet troops is that you need to be in close to have any dps advantage but you are now punished by doing that because of the patch.

Maybe if you played soviets even once instead of whoring over Germany, you might actually understand.
30 Mar 2014, 15:10 PM
#24
avatar of Aurgelwulf

Posts: 184




What do you mean something extra? They already have something extra. They have much better dps, their AT nade is so much more useful than molotov (and you don't need to specifically research it). Panzerfaust also is the same, you don't need to specifically research it. It's vet 1 ability is also more useful than the conscripts. Then they also get an LMG42 upgrade that increases their dps a fair amount, especially at range. Conscripts can get PPSH via a doctrine (yours is free, built into the core game) but it ruins their dps at anything other than close range..What more do you want? The nature of conscripts and many soviet troops is that you need to be in close to have any dps advantage but you are now punished by doing that because of the patch.

Maybe if you played soviets even once instead of whoring over Germany, you might actually understand.


Read what I said again. What I said was that Grens currently, averaged over all ranges, deal slightly more dps than the conscripts - I wasn't asking for a buff I was defending the better DPS with the justification they get squad wiped more easily.

To your point I would say that the soviets have a far wider range of infantry choices than germans so it's only right their backbone infantry has more utility.
30 Mar 2014, 15:23 PM
#25
avatar of enjoycheapbeer

Posts: 12

It's not ok that 240 mp 60 muni squad counters every soviet infantry unit in game.
30 Mar 2014, 15:53 PM
#26
avatar of Aurgelwulf

Posts: 184

It's not ok that 240 mp 60 muni squad counters every soviet infantry unit in game.


Every unit should be able to counter every other opposing unit with better micro and battlefield awareness making up the shortfall in strength, this patch went along way to doing that.

Grens with LMG are frequently countered, I've lost games when I've went heavy on the grens, others such as Imperial Dane in his stream has beaten heavy-grens. It's not the herculean feat you make it out to be.
30 Mar 2014, 16:36 PM
#27
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2014, 04:14 AMVonIvan

You bet!


But anyway back to the more important issues at hand:
1. Cons Need to be even with Grens
2. CEs Need to be as effective as Pios
3. M3s should have a slight armor increase for their cost
4. LMGs and G43s Need to be nerfed, while SVT's(far range), PPsHs(mid range), and regular rifles(close/somewhat mid range) need a slight DPS buff to even out the playing field at the very least so they're as effective as what I put in the () part!
5. The more evening out of the factions, the better. All I care about is balance, and if you're playing Soviets in 2v2 or up, you've already put a nail in the coffin!

On a side note:
-FFS give Penals some sort of AT weapon so they're at least usable.
And for anyone who says I'm a Sovjet fanboi go play a 2v2 as the Soviets against someone who has a similar skill level to your team, and then come back and re-read this post.


I just love how the German fanboys ignore your post...
+1 for the good ideas :D
30 Mar 2014, 16:41 PM
#28
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

So because some people can beat grens it means they are balanced? Using squad wipe is not a good enough reason because soviets have the same problem and grens don't get squad wiped constantly. You don't play soviets so really cannot comment because you have no idea idea what its like playing vs Germany. Go and play a load of games as Soviet and see if you still believe that 480mp vs 240mp is balanced.
30 Mar 2014, 16:41 PM
#29
avatar of Fluffi

Posts: 211



[...]

Many people including from Relic have said you need 2 conscripts for every one gren. That in it self is fine, but then why do 2 conscripts cost 480mp vs the 240 for the grens. I (and I guess many others) are fine with conscripts being inferior to Grens but the price needs to reflect that.


Yes!
I believe it would generally make the soviets more 'soviety' if they would have overall cheaper units.
30 Mar 2014, 16:45 PM
#30
avatar of Aurgelwulf

Posts: 184

So because some people can beat greens it means they are balanced? Using squad wipe is not a good enough reason because soviets have the same problem and greens don't get squad wiped constantly. You don't play soviets so really cannot comment because you have no idea idea what its like playing vs Germany. Go and play a load of games as Soviet and see if you still believe that 480mp vs 240mp is balanced.


It ABSOLUTELY is a good enough reason and nobody can seriously believe that soviet squads are at an equal risk of squad wipe.

You don't need two conscript squads to fight one grenadier squad, just hyperbolic nonsense.

I can speak to what works and doesn't work against soviets because I've lost a lot of games against them, this patch included.

30 Mar 2014, 17:35 PM
#31
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1



It ABSOLUTELY is a good enough reason and nobody can seriously believe that soviet squads are at an equal risk of squad wipe.

You don't need two conscript squads to fight one grenadier squad, just hyperbolic nonsense.

I can speak to what works and doesn't work against soviets because I've lost a lot of games against them, this patch included.



I think you need to actually play Soviets for once to participate in these balance discussions.
30 Mar 2014, 17:39 PM
#32
avatar of Aurgelwulf

Posts: 184



I think you need to actually play Soviets for once to participate in these balance discussions.


I've played custom games plenty, I just choose to focus on the one faction for ladder games is all. If you want to tell me to 'Check my German Privilege, Shitlord' like some hideous Social Justice Warrior/COH2 Gamer chimera, thats fine, it's not going to stop me from stating my opinions on what does and doesn't work in soviet play from the perspective of a German player.
30 Mar 2014, 18:06 PM
#33
avatar of drChengele
Patrion 14

Posts: 640 | Subs: 1

It ABSOLUTELY is a good enough reason and nobody can seriously believe that soviet squads are at an equal risk of squad wipe.
Soviets are at a lower risk of a squad wipe. This is true. Should this be reflected somewhat in the unit's cost? Possibly. But to what extent? You seem to think to the extent it justifies Grenadier performance over Conscripts, for cost. I do not think so. By that logic, why aren't snipers significantly cheaper than Grenadiers, but rather more expensive?

I can speak to what works and doesn't work against soviets because I've lost a lot of games against them, this patch included.
It is simply impossible to get a good feel of unit balance without playing both sides of the field, no matter how you try to justify to yourself that your opinion has credit.

The very nature the of ELO ladder system means you will, after several games, get a pretty much consistent win/loss ratio regardless of balance, unless you are at the very top or the very bottom of the ladder. It is just that you will be winning against more skilled or less skilled opponents than you used to, based on how much the balance is off from the ideal 50%.
30 Mar 2014, 19:46 PM
#34
avatar of herr anfsim

Posts: 247

Regarding Cons vs Grens: Isnt it so that wichever unit is starting out in green cower will win the engagement, given an enemy that will have to cross no or red cower, or have I just been lucky?
30 Mar 2014, 19:49 PM
#35
avatar of MoerserKarL
Donator 22

Posts: 1108

Making Soviets more Soviety: Take a look ;) (sry for offtopic^^)



30 Mar 2014, 19:56 PM
#36
avatar of Bravus

Posts: 503

Permanently Banned
For the reality, soviets are still much strong...

Real life talk...
30 Mar 2014, 19:56 PM
#37
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

Making Soviets more Soviety: Take a look ;) (sry for offtopic^^)





I hate these stereotypes. It's not funny because it's not true
30 Mar 2014, 20:16 PM
#38
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3552 | Subs: 2

But it must be true

Mission 1 of the Campaign says so!
30 Mar 2014, 20:43 PM
#39
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 807

Yes, give us some reality. Make that just 3 cons have rifles in the squad. HAHAHA
30 Mar 2014, 20:55 PM
#40
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 927

i cant understand how you all fall for the russian propaganda that the "enemy at the gates style" didnt happen... explain to me how finland killed 3x more soviets than we lost with barely any equipment... we didnt even fire our artillery sometimes because our ammo was so low, our airforce was a joke and we barely had any tanks and not to mention wastly outnumbered and yet soviets died in droves.

I got family who fought the war so i heard my facts from guys who was there not from some shitty documentary.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Livestreams

Germany 39
France 17
unknown 17
unknown 17
unknown 11
Canada 3

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

990 users are online: 990 guests
1 post in the last 24h
8 posts in the last week
38 posts in the last month
Registered members: 49081
Welcome our newest member, kavyashide
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM