Is this M3 balanced (see video)?

This is a familiar CoH2 refrain - unit 'X' doesn't have utility versus cost compared to similarly or more cheaply priced units.

The German AC has finally been given some love, at a commensurate price hike, maybe the M3 needs something similar.

The early CoH2 vehicles are not at all analogous with their vCoH forebears, they serve a different purpose (bearing in mind the Germans don't actually have an early light vehicle in T1).

Crap micro or no crap micro - that guy lost a lot of MP, fuel and munis to two entry-level builder units. And even parking realism aside for a moment, on a level of sheer verisimilitude, guys firing 9mm submachineguns *at an armoured car* and blowing it up?

Really?

Pios need a nerf. Even with a drive-by the damage output on that AC was disproportionate, RNG-gods or no RNG.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the M3 cost 80 MP and 20 fuel? Against 400 mp?

If anything it needs nerfed.

if you read peters post, youd see the m3 was given plenty of love this patch as well. theres never a reason for doing a "drive-by" with an m3. expose the rear armor and it will get punished.

the main problem is everyone is so stuck on the way things used to be. pios have had their role changed dramatically. they arent meant to be useless builder units like in previous patches. theyre actually combat units now.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the M3 cost 80 MP and 20 fuel?

230 mp and 5 fuel now.

30-40% decrease in armor and ~12% health increase in health just so it can survive one pak shot. i wouldn't say it got a huge love.

I really hate the scout car, it's like the bren carrier because it's a high dps mobile unit that comes out too early for the Germans to counter them.

If used right instead driving around in circles getting shot at, the vehicle will wipe out any support weapons and pioneers and can kill grenadiers just by kiting because it's gun is just so powerful.

In the hands of a good player this will just make your life hell. At least with the recent nerfs players will be losing them less even though they are still powerful.

And even parking realism aside for a moment, on a level of sheer verisimilitude, guys firing 9mm submachineguns *at an armoured car* and blowing it up?

Really?

You know this is a game? And if you really need a explanation, they shoot the driver.
Could people just stop with this ******? I could tell you dozens of other things that are not realistic about CoH2.

30-40% decrease in armor and ~12% health increase in health just so it can survive one pak shot. i wouldn't say it got a huge love.

it survives a single faust and will typically still force the gren to retreat. good players will consider this a buff. people who try to circle 2 pios and dont even try to save their vehicles when damaged will be disappointed.

the fact german infantry has lost all of its armor (except pgrens who still lost the majority of it) is a significant boost to its dps.

the fact it costs more mp and less fuel is also a buff in my opinion. mp is obviously much easier to get, is impossible to cut off, and doesnt delay your teching like fuel.

it survives a single faust and will typically still force the gren to retreat. good players will consider this a buff. people who try to circle 2 pios and dont even try to save their vehicles when damaged will be disappointed.

the fact german infantry has lost all of its armor (except pgrens who still lost the majority of it) is a significant boost to its dps.

the fact it costs more mp and less fuel is also a buff in my opinion. mp is obviously much easier to get, is impossible to cut off, and doesnt delay your teching like fuel.

I will disagree on second point. In the early game where this M3 is relevant, cheaper MP cost is definitely more preferable than cheaper fuel cost. In the early game where it's a scramble to get as many capping units out and position your infantry in key areas, building an M3 now means delaying about 50 seconds for the next conscript squad. That's one less conscript squad running around and capping those points. Each of those points yield fuel, and typically an early squad can cap 2 points before engaging the enemy. That's an extra 6 fuel/min, which makes the M3's 20 fuel cost much less dramatic.

it survives a single faust and will typically still force the gren to retreat. good players will consider this a buff. people who try to circle 2 pios and dont even try to save their vehicles when damaged will be disappointed.

the fact german infantry has lost all of its armor (except pgrens who still lost the majority of it) is a significant boost to its dps.

the fact it costs more mp and less fuel is also a buff in my opinion. mp is obviously much easier to get, is impossible to cut off, and doesnt delay your teching like fuel.

i dont think redone armor and health gives m3 buff against panzerfaust. only 20 more hp with very low armor still leaves it as vulnerable as it was before the patch(after being fausted) in my opinion. ill say 20hp boost gave buff against one pak shot for sure.

and with higher damage that small arms do and armor debuff that m3 got, m3 in distance will take good damage, just as m3 does good damage due to inf armor changes. so it goes both ways.

what i have problems is that when i try to flank mg with penals in it or flanking any other weapons teams, even weapons team members not manning the weapon still does decent damage to m3 which didn't happen before. but i guess thats just how it is.

I think the M3 is fine. It sucks because people are using it as an Armoured Car, which it is not. It is a Scout Car, it has a large visual range and is very cheap. It can be makeshift armour and very effective if you macro it well, but it's not a 222 or T-70, you can't charge it into a group of soldiers and expect victory. Half the time you can't even do that with a 222 or T-70, because of AT Grenades, PTRS, Panzerfaust, and Panzerschrecks.

I think the M3 is fine. It sucks because people are using it as an Armoured Car, which it is not. It is a Scout Car, it has a large visual range and is very cheap. It can be makeshift armour and very effective if you macro it well, but it's not a 222 or T-70, you can't charge it into a group of soldiers and expect victory. Half the time you can't even do that with a 222 or T-70, because of AT Grenades, PTRS, Panzerfaust, and Panzerschrecks.

Awww man, it's a good thing this thing only costs 230/5 instead of the backbreaking 240/10 that the 222 costs, because I'd hate to have to pay that extra 10/5 for actual combat capabilities.

it survives a single faust and will typically still force the gren to retreat. good players will consider this a buff. people who try to circle 2 pios and dont even try to save their vehicles when damaged will be disappointed.

the fact german infantry has lost all of its armor (except pgrens who still lost the majority of it) is a significant boost to its dps.

the fact it costs more mp and less fuel is also a buff in my opinion. mp is obviously much easier to get, is impossible to cut off, and doesnt delay your teching like fuel.

No, sorry, I don't agree with anything you said. The health buff doesn't actually help you one bit against a gren squad, because it only means you are left at 80 health instead of 60, which is 5 instead of 4 shots from the grenadiers, or 25% increase in survivability after a faust. Meanwhile the chance for any single infantry round to penetrate you from the front has increased by 55%! Against pioneers it's even worse, previously they were the prime targets of M3s, now they're things you run away from because their mp40s will eat you alive if you dare to come close. Assgrens are similarly improved against the m3, now even one squad is a reason to stay the hell away while previously you could kill a lone squad with an (empty) m3.

The extra MP instead of fuel is extremely bad for early game progression, because it means making an m3 represents a straight trade off for a normal combat unit. It also represents a reduction in options, previously you could make a fuel cache to make up for the fuel cost if you really wanted to (not that anyone did because it wasn't needed). Now you can't. There's also the reality that with so many people just playing guard rifle straight to t34/85s, fuel is largely meaningless (you will always have enough by the time the cps are up), while manpower is always valuable.

The only thing that's true, is that m3 gun dps is now increased relative to what it was against units that previously had armor. The thing is, the nerfed survivability against all small arms, means you have to stay much, much farther out(actually out of combat, but let's pretend you can stay at max range with the thing). And how much damage does an m3 do at max range? Pretty much exactly the same as a vet0, full conscript squad.

Awww man, it's a good thing this thing only costs 230/5 instead of the backbreaking 240/10 that the 222 costs, because I'd have to have to pay that extra 10/5 for actual combat capabilities.

The 222 also has tech and building costs and comes out at T2. The M3 comes out early enough to be one of your first T1 unit.

The 222 also has tech and building costs and comes out at T2. The M3 comes out early enough to be one of your first T1 unit.

Yes, it does. But I don't think that's a good excuse for the m3 being a worthless pile of dung. Even if you upped the armor on the m3 back to what it was, which I think it is a completely reasonable request, the 222 would still have much better performance on all fronts.

I mean according to the video, early vehicles were supposed to be much more dangerous now. The only thing the new m3 is dangerous to is the soviet player's economy.

and with higher damage that small arms do and armor debuff that m3 got, m3 in distance will take good damage, just as m3 does good damage due to inf armor changes. so it goes both ways.

well it does go both ways, but to be more specific, the changes didnt have equal effects.

the majority of the grens increased damage comes from increased accuracy. since grens already had 100% accuracy against scout cars, their dps actually didnt go up dramatically against the m3. with 100% accuracy, the old dps was 2.9 at long range. the new dps would now be 3.5. thats a 21% increase. if youre shooting its front armor, the chance to pen has only gone up about 7%. those changes combined are still a lot less than the effect of grens going from 1.5 down to 1 armor, so the m3 gained much more than grens did.

well it does go both ways, but to be more specific, the changes didnt have equal effects.

the majority of the grens increased damage comes from increased accuracy. since grens already had 100% accuracy against scout cars, their dps actually didnt go up dramatically against the m3. with 100% accuracy, the old dps was 2.9 at long range. the new dps would now be 3.5. thats a 21% increase. if youre shooting its front armor, the chance to pen has only gone up about 7%. those changes combined are still a lot less than the effect of grens going from 1.5 down to 1 armor, so the m3 gained much more than grens did.

wow, you got good stats.
thanks for correcting me.

but i still think its too weak health and armor wise. it does have a very good place at very early game, but as soon as germans start pumping out lmgs, pgrens, or armoured car, it will get melted away. i think the patch did a good job keeping 222 relevant mid-late game, but i dont think the same applies to m3. 222 only gained from this patch but only thing m3 got while losing some is one shot prevention from pak40 and tank shells. with only 20hp breathing room, i have to keep m3 fully repaired but this is hard in mid-late game as CEs then are used to lay mines and repair more important vehicles and at guns in my case.

im not saying its useless. i love using them. i just think 222 is just way much better. i know they are different units but m3 is the only sov's only early light vehicle.

The only thing the new m3 is dangerous to is the soviet player's economy.

He has a point.
I don't mind M3 being in the spot it is, armor and damage wise.
But its cost is way too high for what it does.

M3 need armor buff back.

Just wanted to clarify a few facts.

As Cruzz noted the accuracy of the Pioneers at most ranges is over 100%. However, accuracy isn't the only variable which factors into the DPS if a squad, rate of fire in this scenario is more important. The ROF at max range on a MP40 is extremely low, resulting in fairly weak DPS.

As another poster noted, most German have seen their armour reduced. The M3 used to fight infantry with 1.5 armour resulting in reduced damage output. In the current build, the M3 is 50% more effective vs Grenadiers as an example.

You don't necessarily need to garrison the M3, I find them great at flanking due to their speed and using their top gunner to deal damage to German infantry. At 5.4 armour, there is only a 18.5% chance of a shot penetrating the M3. Additionally, it can also absorb a AT gun shot now, I would definitely say it's been buffed.

And guards and shocks armor was redused, so now guards not able to kill scout car effective as it was, but 222 sc armor wan't reduced.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the M3 cost 80 MP and 20 fuel? Against 400 mp?

If anything it needs nerfed.

+1.

M-3 MP needs to be tooled back to original MP cost.

If used right instead driving around in circles getting shot at,

it gets blown up by grens on a-move.