Counter for the Turtle Tactic on Certain Maps

Hey guys,

I have pretty much hit a wall at my skill level and need help tackling a serious problem for to get to the next level. And thats when OST tends to turtle up late in the mid game after I have techd and chosen my doctrine.

If they do it earlier then this I have no issue but the problem is they can do it at any time. On LangersKaya top next to the high muni and Road to Karkhov top next to the fuel is the most devastating. Usually one flank is secured by the map edge so you only have to paths two advance.

Typically I have picked T3 and a doctrine without a good off map like Soviet Shock Army for example (just an example i realize it has arty but last time I forgot to use because in 1v1 i dont use it much).

Before the constant nerfs of the T34/T70 my chose tactic was 2xT34s and 1 T70 to deal with the Pak and the turtle was done. But now that both of these tanks kill infantry on average slower than a PPSH script it doesnt cut it anymore.

The typical turtle I will see includes:

1-2x Paks that will make short work of any T34 thats bold enough.
1-2x HMGs to prevent all infantry advances
1 HT to reinforce
Armor to provide support
Plenty of Grens for Faust
Mortor HT if I dared to use the 120MM

And they just camp the two VPs. Typically these players micro is garbage but my own inability to beat this low skilled tactic just show cases my own limits. Very frustrating because it usually happens after I have soundly beat them in the early and mid game.

What do you do in this case with Just T2/T3 and no offmaps?

I think T3 is only good if u get ahead, so u can finish the game fast. If your opponent played the early game well, and u couldnt get a big enough adventage, and he starts to turtle in one side of the map, go for T4.

Hold his tanks with 1-2 AT-s, maybe one SU85, then go for 1-2 Katyushas it will do a ton of damage and makes turtling very hard and costly to maintain. Pros sometimes go for a fast SU76 first after T4 finishes, its pretty strong vs anything the german will have at that moment (and u can barrage mg's and at's to death).

With T2 and T3, don't be overly aggressive and don't loose mp unnecessarily. Secure the majority of the vps and let your opponent come to you. Get some ATGs and keep them reinforced with a halftrack.

I think T3 is only good if u get ahead, so u can finish the game fast. If your opponent played the early game well, and u couldnt get a big enough adventage, and he starts to turtle in one side of the map, go for T4.

Hold his tanks with 1-2 AT-s, maybe one SU85, then go for 1-2 Katyushas it will do a ton of damage and makes turtling very hard and costly to maintain. Pros sometimes go for a fast SU76 first after T4 finishes, its pretty strong vs anything the german will have at that moment (and u can barrage mg's and at's to death).

if you can micro well enough su76s can be very powerful. esepically agianst at guns and bunkers. but also against all tier 3 units.

i think right now its mostly best to avoid tier 3 this patch anyways. (though the quad car is fucking amazing )

Try not to get stuck on T3 for too long if you are not booking great succes with it during the midgame. If you are finding it hard to crack the turtlers shell, conserve your T34s and get a field gun to assist in AT duties while you save fuel for T4. Once you have that, you can get a katyuska or two (depending on his army composition you might want to get a SU85 first, followed by a katyuska) to barrage away at the enemy positions.

Once you hit vet 1 with the katyaska, you can use precision strike to insta gib squads from across the map for 60 ammo. It's so powerful that it will not only de-crew support weapons, most of the time it will take out the weapon itself too. You can also use it on capping squads if they made the mistake of clicking on the flag. If you do not have any targets for precision strikes, you can use the standard barrage which has a very fast cool down once you hit vet 2.

Against turtle Ostheer I find that early mortar + fast M3 with 2 enige + flamer is extremely helpful.

Try not to get stuck on T3 for too long if you are not booking great succes with it during the midgame. If you are finding it hard to crack the turtlers shell, conserve your T34s and get a field gun to assist in AT duties while you save fuel for T4. Once you have that, you can get a katyuska or two (depending on his army composition you might want to get a SU85 first, followed by a katyuska) to barrage away at the enemy positions.

Once you hit vet 1 with the katyaska, you can use precision strike to insta gib squads from across the map for 60 ammo. It's so powerful that it will not only de-crew support weapons, most of the time it will take out the weapon itself too. You can also use it on capping squads if they made the mistake of clicking on the flag. If you do not have any targets for precision strikes, you can use the standard barrage which has a very fast cool down once you hit vet 2.

Yeah Kat is what I usually do if I catch it early enough. I really hate T4 on Road to Kharakov due to how trusight is kind of messed up on some of those alleys. Literally if your on top and going towards the bottoms cut off an SU85 will not be able to see down that alley and instead will derp his dumbass all the way down to the cut off even if you can see the armor beyond that. You have to use attack ground...so damn annoying.

Your probably right I should side tech. I find SU76s more successful than Kats unless you can afford 2-3 Kats.

Mortors work sometimes unless they picked the Mortor HT then its LOL Firebomb insta gib on the mortor team.

If you can hit Vet 1 with a Kat they are awesome as hell though you are right.

In the last example on road he was a more skilled player than the norm as in he dodged all molos and moved his HMGs all the time etc. I did very well early and mid until the turtle was established. And this is a pattern with me. Paks kill T3 wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too easily nowadays (since kiting is impossible).

if you can micro well enough su76s can be very powerful. esepically agianst at guns and bunkers. but also against all tier 3 units.

i think right now its mostly best to avoid tier 3 this patch anyways. (though the quad car is fucking amazing )

And this is the reason I like it. To deal with Shrek Blobs. Funny how the M5 is now the best thing in this Tier...

Against turtle Ostheer I find that early mortar + fast M3 with 2 enige + flamer is extremely helpful.

So you got T1 and T2?

With T2 and T3, don't be overly aggressive and don't loose mp unnecessarily. Secure the majority of the vps and let your opponent come to you. Get some ATGs and keep them reinforced with a halftrack.

This is my tactic. Except these two exceptions and map placements allow Ost an easy way to secure two VPs where YOU have to come to THEM. And this is the problem.

Road to Kharakov Top Turtle around the middle VP and the Fuel this covers middle and right VP.

Langerskaya Muni high turtle covers the Middle and the Top VP. So your stuck trying to assault them. Which ends up bleeding the shit out of me makes for a very long game and ends up in my loss.

Other maps I pull out ye old Soviet Mallet and have turtle soup.

And thanks everybody for your feedback thus far.

You could try experimenting with Howies, theres plenty of Docs with them on offer and chosing one does not meant you HAVE to build one.. but could be a useful tool if your struggling regulalrly with this?

You can way outrange their indirect fire, and half their army is statics, so you force them to try come at you with their mobile units (tanks), which you can be ready for with AT nades, mines and ZiS/T34.

Or if you dont fancy that another nice strat is to use ISU 152. it works nicely with T3, as long as you only get 1-2 tanks and conserve fuel for the assault gun, it also comes with IL-2 bombing run, which combined totally ruins any campers. So start with fast T3, but play carefully and transition into your own turtle.

Yeah thats how I failed last time I had Arty but forgot I had it I use it so little.

And Mines I do so love them. The last example he wouldnt venture into my side of the map due to mines every where.

The issue is though i tend to struggle with it AFTER i have picked my doctrine and have techd. So ISU152 wouldnt have been an option because I already picked another for example.

I really need to get to the skill level of some other folks I have seen replays from that can seem to effortlessly flank these things. Which I can on most maps except the map and starting locations I presented.

I usually need three avenues of attack to pull it off since two are always MG guarded. The examples I have above only have two avenues of attack

Going to make sure I include anti turtle measures in all the doctrines I pick but I wish I could avoid that.

Or perhaps always go T4 even though I detest T4 in general.

Im a lot better with Soviets than I am with Germans, Im beggining to understand that the key to Ger is identifying exactly what the Soviets are doing, and picking a strat and doctrine which counters it, which imo is a lot harder than simply dictating how the game is played, as when Soviets.

Because most soviet strategys involve strong certain elements, with other elements either neglected, or not available.. thats where Ger can capitalise.. if they can think quickly enough while fighting. It also requires a deep understanding of Soviets, which I dont think is the case the other way around.

Im a lot better with Soviets than I am with Germans, Im beggining to understand that the key to Ger is identifying exactly what the Soviets are doing, and picking a strat and doctrine which counters it, which imo is a lot harder than simply dictating how the game is played, as when Soviets.

Because most soviet strategys involve strong certain elements, with other elements either neglected, or not available.. thats where Ger can capitalise.. if they can think quickly enough while fighting. It also requires a deep understanding of Soviets, which I dont think is the case the other way around.

I agree and what i describe is just that. They knew what I could and could not do in those cases and were ready for it. I was just stuck going ATTACKKK!!!!! lol

Yeah I think the key next step as Sov, is to be prepared for an extra stage to our game plan. But thats often tricky with the semi all or nothing soviet doctines.

Two out of three commanders in my rooster have ML20. This howie is an amazing shell cracker. And it destroys blobs of grens milking half truck, it also finishes both tanks and engeneers during repair. Death from nowhere.

how does any of this solve the PIV problem, they have a mortar halftrack so your AT guns are being continually bombarded with flame, and a PIV with hunt down his Katz he can also bomb your howies easily, I don't think you can out turtle Axis.

You gotta get that early map control, spam cons all day long going for cut-offs, defensive players with bad micro will not be able to stop it, when the halftracks hit the field AT nade em, or cap elsewhere, NEVER get guards, get shocks and AT guns, he will be forced so far back he will be turtling in his base.

Then you can get Katz if you want or just ignore the crappy soviet tiers except tier 2 and get IS2 KV flame.

don't counter his turtling just make it impossible to get.

If he's good and turtling he will have a superior offensive wing which will kill your attempts to counter it.
He has to be denied it.

I don't agree. Soviet artillery options are superior to the german options and it's perfectly doable to start out aggressive and transition into a more defensive playstyle. See my first comment in this thread.

Yeah Areohank is right. I never suggested trying to turtle from that start, you should always be aggressive. But sometimes Germans just get set up, there's nothing you can do about it every single time, so when it does happen, you need to be prepared with a plan to crack them, and simply assaulting with cons and tanks is not going to work in this situation.

I don't agree. Soviet artillery options are superior to the german options and it's perfectly doable to start out aggressive and transition into a more defensive playstyle. See my first comment in this thread.

Yes your absolutely right what I suggested isn't always possible, but your arty will be spotted and have a bomb run dropped on it.

Soviet artillery is also not as accurate, so yeah I suppose SU-85's and kats.