Strategy in Company of Heroes 2

I'm going to lock this for a while and let people cool off a bit, because this is getting personal now and asking for Relic staff members to get demoted or sacked is not appropriate language - regardless of what you may think of their words or actions.

Inverse started this thread with a solid post, but it's gone downhill since... as these things invariably do.

Ok guys, we are ready to re-open this but keep the discussion focused on Inverse thread. I made a couple of posts invisible because we have discussed in plenty of occasions with Relic about that matter and right now it's all ok, we are working together as a whole team to get COH2 as succesful as possible

I personally like the commander choices and bulletins. I find it interesting to mix and match to see what works best. I also prefer the team games. Now, I'll admit I'm not that great when it comes to the 1v1 competitive scene but it seems to me like limiting the commander choices for the SNF's and stuff seems to work. I hope the game and community continues to grow. The community maps are cool, and I liked it when HelpingHans did the community maps basic matches and streamed it, I'd like to see more of that being done. Who knows, maybe I'll start! I also thought this past SNF was great, and I've watched them all.

God Bless

Hi @all,

i understood, that Inverse suggested - plz correct me - to strengthen the commander System for more strategic depth but only if accesible to everyone.

So i thaught,why doesnt relic releases all the previous commanders if the new commander batch comes out. As i understood relic wants to release new commanders regularly anyways - maybe every 2 months?.

In this time the commanders could be balanced. I think this would be a fair compromise. Everybody who wants new commanders immediatley buys for the sneak peak (maybe even with season pass!!!) Everybody else waits.

Best Regards

Hi @all,

i understood, that Inverse suggested - plz correct me - to strengthen the commander System for more strategic depth but only if accesible to everyone.

So i thaught,why doesnt relic releases all the previous commanders if the new commander batch comes out. As i understood relic wants to release new commanders regularly anyways - maybe every 2 months?.

In this time the commanders could be balanced. I think this would be a fair compromise. Everybody who wants new commanders immediatley buys for the sneak peak (maybe even with season pass!!!) Everybody else waits.

Best Regards

That would make less income for the company =) They won`t do that

"Inverse" wrote:

I've played Company of Heroes for over 5 years, I participated in the CoH2 alpha, beta, and two playtests at Relic's offices. I've talked to developers, engaged in discussions with other top players. I've put a hell of a lot of time into CoH and CoH2 because I want the game to be amazing

+1
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"Stoffa" wrote:

I love both of them (vCOH and COH2) in their own way. I do feel, however, that CoH2 deserves to be cut some slack since it's hardly the steaming pile of shit people make it out to be.

+1
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"Basilone" wrote:

7) Possibly the worst optimized game ever. Mid range cards have very inconsistent frame rates even on lowish settings. Even high end cards can barely manage to max the game out. No sli or crossfire support either, its like the gfx programmer is some intern working his way through gaming school.

+100
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"Inverse" wrote:

Paid DLC is necessary. Paid DLC that affects gameplay is not. The game has no hope of being popular competitively if all commanders aren't available to everyone eventually.

+1
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This is from me:

I understand everyone who is upset with COH2 because, let us be honest, everybody expected more (i am not going in to details) but i also agree with the ones who like the game. The truth is in between IMO.

And one last thing (its a little bit of Topic i think).
What is that big difference about the cover-system (green,yellow,red cover) between the 2 games? I read it so many times and i googled it but i cant find a clear answer.
Please let me know...

Thanks!

more importantly than some of the older guys of the vCoH days not liking coh2 or the lacking number of streams and/or stream viewers etc., i feel like the game is not very enticing to new players. i also think the business model behind the commanders etc. is flawed.

the coh franchise has always had a pretty steep learning curve... even someone who has only played a few games will likely absolutely crush anybody that is playing his first or second game, so multiplayer is not very noob friendly (that problem is exacerbated by the fact that there are pretty much 0 absolute numbers in coh, you can literally only guess and/or try stuff out to see how much dmg it does, how random events are etc.). on top of that, there's a lot of comp stompers that probably don't have any need for commanders either (if they feel like the AI is too strong, they can always choose an easier AI opponent).

the only kind of players that will likely get convinced to buy DLC commanders are players that do play a lot of multiplayer and feel like they can not win without the new commanders (let's be honest here, all those newer commanders were p2w, at least on their release). in order to compete, all "competetive" players would have to get those commanders in order to "level the playing field".

one flaw i see with that system is that it discourages new players even more, while it even scares away players that might not like buying DLC. i do not see any scenario where releasing DLC commanders brings in more players.

i have stated multiple times that i do not like the game in it's current state (it's still a "enjoyable" game though), but much more than that i feel like the business decisions are what is REALLY holding CoH2 back. even the way the game is right now, it could have a way bigger play base.

tl;dr:
coh2 is not great, but is still being held back by business decisions.

Look, the commander system is the one aspect of the game that is least likely to change and too much effort is spent wishing it was something that it's not.

It's not up to us the presume if the current monetization system will work in the long run or not. The data will speak for itself and Relic will act accordingly.

This discussion has raised other aspects of the game that can be improved and that we can exert more influence on:
-global upgrades,
-improving the early game,
-cover,
-importance of light vehicles,
-late game being less of a heavy tank fest.

I suggest that we focus on those.

Honestly, the best thing for the game competitively would be if Relic just went all-out with commanders and made them extremely diverse and game-changing, but made them available to everyone somehow. There are a lot of ways to monetize commanders while still giving players the option to unlock them over time (timed releases, experience unlocks, etc.). Unless an expansion comes and adds factions that drastically change how the game is played, commanders are the only things that are going to add interesting variety to the game, because the base game is really lacking variety from a strategy point of view.

This is really the best hope for competitive CoH2 play I feel. Make commanders integral and give them abilities that drastically change how the game has been played, but make those commanders available to everyone so they can actually be used in competition and properly balanced.

I really don't think that commanders should become a crutch for the lack of strategic depth in this game (free or not). COH2 as a tactics/strategy game should be primarily about that. If it's lacking in that field, then Relic should strive to improve it, not cover it up with commander variety.

The thing is, no matter how many commanders you add, once you get past the wow factor of discovering a new ability, you're left with a bland strategy game (not that I think it's bland, but I would like to see more depth).

Commanders should not be that integral to COH. They are supplements to a playstyle and you should not be required to "have 'em all". That model has worked for MOBA games because the hero unit and its abilities are all you have. In COH, every base unit is important and each one should have a specific and meaningful role.

Honestly, the best thing for the game competitively would be if Relic just went all-out with commanders and made them extremely diverse and game-changing, but made them available to everyone somehow. There are a lot of ways to monetize commanders while still giving players the option to unlock them over time (timed releases, experience unlocks, etc.). Unless an expansion comes and adds factions that drastically change how the game is played, commanders are the only things that are going to add interesting variety to the game, because the base game is really lacking variety from a strategy point of view.

This is really the best hope for competitive CoH2 play I feel. Make commanders integral and give them abilities that drastically change how the game has been played, but make those commanders available to everyone so they can actually be used in competition and properly balanced.

This is basically my hope as well. A lot of the newer commanders have this potential to drastically change the entire course of games, which is really cool/fun/keeps things interesting but... not everyone has access to them which sucks. Even if as Inverse/myself have suggested there was some way to unlock them by earning experience/some form of "currency" by playing the game it'd be great.

In addition to this, Relic could keep releasing crazy-bonkers-overpowered commanders for use in single player/custom games/ToW and charge for these commanders - but at least they wouldn't affect automatch and they'd be pretty easy to restrict from tournaments. Or something like that, I think we all can understand Relic releasing paid DLC so that they can continue to support the game - that is more than fine. But when paid DLC is so important/vital to being competitive in automatch/tournaments it has a hugely negative impact on the competitive scene and (I believe, maybe I'm wrong) that it drives new players away which ultimately stagnates the game.

There seem to be plenty of ways that Relic/Sega could monetize this game on a continual basis if that's necessary for continued support. I'd gladly buy a skin pack every now and then or a faceplate if they're cool enough, and if I could get my friends into the game I'm sure we'd buy ToW content because some of those missions are damn fun. But asking a friend to buy what is now a $120ish game isn't easy, especially when it will cost about half of that for them to just try the game (free trial pls Relic!)

As I've mentioned before, I don't see why we can't take the best aspects of vCoH, the best aspects of CoH 2 and make a freaking amazing game. I'll admit that while CoH2 commanders are cool, they can't prop the strategic aspect of the game up forever on their own. Sure not everything from vCoH would translate well into CoH 2 but I wouldn't mind seeing some more options for global upgrades, especially on the Russian side of things. Or just a few more units being added to each faction - perhaps some more diverse light vehicles if people think that that would help spice up the early game.

Deep, impactful CoH2 commanders + deep, impactful upgrades similar to what vCoH had = tons of important player choice and an awesome game. Or so it seems to me...

I really don't think that commanders should become a crutch for the lack of strategic depth in this game (free or not). COH2 as a tactics/strategy game should be primarily about that. If it's lacking in that field, then Relic should strive to improve it, not cover it up with commander variety.

The thing is, no matter how many commanders you add, once you get past the wow factor of discovering a new ability, you're left with a bland strategy game (not that I think it's bland, but I would like to see more depth).

Commanders should not be that integral to COH. They are supplements to a playstyle and you should not be required to "have 'em all". That model has worked for MOBA games because the hero unit and its abilities are all you have. In COH, every base unit is important and each one should have a specific and meaningful role.

News flash, this is not a MOBA.
I agree with you, but your MOBA example doesn`t make sense.
They could use one thing from MOBA and that is the Commander rotation and in game currency to unlock them as well as cash.

I really don't think that commanders should become a crutch for the lack of strategic depth in this game (free or not). COH2 as a tactics/strategy game should be primarily about that. If it's lacking in that field, then Relic should strive to improve it, not cover it up with commander variety.

The thing is, no matter how many commanders you add, once you get past the wow factor of discovering a new ability, you're left with a bland strategy game (not that I think it's bland, but I would like to see more depth).

Commanders should not be that integral to COH. They are supplements to a playstyle and you should not be required to "have 'em all". That model has worked for MOBA games because the hero unit and its abilities are all you have. In COH, every base unit is important and each one should have a specific and meaningful role.

I agree, it's a bad solution, but the only way to fix the base game would be a major redesign, and that just isn't going to happen until an expansion, and even then it's pretty doubtful. But with the recent change to increase the number of CPs, I think Relic could make commanders a lot more complex and give them a lot of abilities and upgrades that could approximate the kind of strategic options that made vCoH so much fun. If they lock those additions behind a paywall, however, it just makes the situation worse.

I'd just like to say, because the thread sort of went sideways yesterday, that I really appreciate Inverse's opening post.

It's intelligent, well written and a very good look at the game from a perspective that we don't always have internally. It's a stellar example of what this community is capable of, and what COH2.ORG in particular brings to the table.

I'm glad it's reopened and conversation has returned to that level of discourse rather than the side track it took yesterday. We've definitely looked at this thread, and the OP and are considering it internally.

Which isn't a promise or anything, just telling you that we are listening.

In a creepy way.

I agree, it's a bad solution, but the only way to fix the base game would be a major redesign, and that just isn't going to happen until an expansion, and even then it's pretty doubtful. But with the recent change to increase the number of CPs, I think Relic could make commanders a lot more complex and give them a lot of abilities and upgrades that could approximate the kind of strategic options that made vCoH so much fun. If they lock those additions behind a paywall, however, it just makes the situation worse.

I think we essentially agree to the point that the core of COH2 should be free. I just don't think that commanders should be that integral to the core. In fact, new commanders should be about as necessary to a players success as a new skin pack. My feel is that this was Relic's original intent based on their monetization model.

The fact that reality deviates from that original vision is a problem (balance). One that I hope Relic will see to and find ways to prevent in the future.

I don't think the base game should be free, I think the add-ons that affect multiplayer gameplay should be free, or at least accessible somehow through gameplay instead of only available on the store.

I'm just trying to be realistic here. There's a close to zero percent chance that the core game is going to receive major content changes. That would require a major redesign, and that's just too much work to do to a 6-month-old game. Commanders, however, are being constantly developed, constantly released, and can very easily be changed.

What you're saying is you think CoH2 commanders should function like vCoH commanders. They should supplement a strategy, not define it. I think that works excellently when your base game offers a lot of strategic variety and depth. But CoH2 doesn't offer that. If you had vCoH-style commanders in CoH2, you'd have an extremely boring game.

Luckily, CoH2 has a modified commander structure that could, in theory, make up for this lack of depth. In order to do that, however, they need to be over the top. They need to drastically change how you can play the game. And they need to be available to everyone, because you need to give everyone the same options if you want a healthy competitive scene.

Personally, I would've liked to see a deep base game with low-impact commanders. But CoH2 doesn't really have a deep base game, and the best hope for that depth right now is the constantly evolving commander system.

I believe strategy is constantly evolving in this game every patch, which is good, however sometimes the strategies used are those that can be abused easily, i.e. shock troops, sniper/guard combos, assgrens, etc... While we shouldn't necessarily nerf them to death I feel adjusting the ways in which they operate would be a more productive way of moving this game in the right direction.

Realistically, Inverse's suggestion about commanders is the only plausible way this game can be given more depth. At its core (some opinions, not all), this game is lacking right? There is no way Relic is going to go back and rewrite codes/etc.. to make this game contain more strategic depth. The only way to do this now is through commanders. Commanders could drastically change the way the game is played and in some ways, Commanders already have. My strategy is much different when playing against Shocks then against Soviet Industry. As soviet my strategy is much different if I see a vet 3 mortar out in the field in 3 minutes then when I see gren spam. The commanders have already changed the meta a lot. Just think if they added even more units and abilities to the commanders. More games will play different from the players perspective which could bring layers of strategy not even seen in CoH1.

UNFORTUNATELY Cash RUles everything around me (C.R.E.A.M) and we will probably have to pay for this. Unless Relic changes its business model, which I doubt it will, this game will hit our pockets hard. Hell it has already hit mine, 60+ for the game, add another 10-20$ for commanders, and I haven't even bought the ToW missions. I don't mind supporting a game I like but there has to be a line drawn somewhere right?

Regardless of all this, I really do enjoy the game. Now that I have a better understanding of the mechanics and strategies i am having fun. I have logged 600+ hours already. Even though my CoH2 weekly activity is getting less and less, that's only because I cant ever seem to find a game. But ill still watch replays for a while and leave my CoH2 on while i sleep and work to boost its #s! lol.

I get the argument that the absence of upgrades removes some of the strategiv depth, but in my oppinion there are other important adjustments and missing features that reduce the tactical and strategic depth.

One such aspect is that the core factions are lacking certain important abilities, like FHQs, tanktraps and viable mines, sandbags and bunkers depending on choice of faction. Adding these in commanders, in stead of to the core factions, makes the commanders even more awkward as you need specific commanders to access what you would expect to be basic abilities, thus limiting strategic options a lot.

A more subtle, yet verry noticable, aspect is how they changed the entire infantry dynamic, resulting in slow firefights and the importance of cower drasticly reduced. This again reduces the importance of positioning and turns the game into more of a clickfest that it had to be.

Lastly, I would like to mention that I feel like COH2 rewards spamming more in some ways. The MGs are nothing like they were in vCOH, and they never really seemed to know what do do with them. Cower is less important, so overrunning well positioned units isnt an issue anymore. AT-Guns arent that effective anymore, and the absence of tanktraps and decent mines for the germans does little of what could even out the battle between man and machine. This all makes spamming masses of tanks or infantry more of a viable tactic, wich of course is a dumbing down tacticly and strategicly.