Terror & Anti-Infantry Tactics

Okay, so, I think the old CE commanders are generally pretty good as re-jumbled vanilla abilities go, but I've never been happy with these two in particular.

Why?

Because I dislike the fact that they share three of their five abilities, something which no other commander does. (I'm discounting the ToW commanders that were later added to MP, as that was clearly an afterthought).

IMO the AI guy is fine; I like his mix of abilities, and it does pretty much exactly what it says on the tin. Terror, however, I am less convinced by. It feels a bit clunky, and is only half a doctrine away (so to speak) from AI. It's lazy, and thus disappointing.

What about this as a revised version?

Terror Tactics (just as a recap)

1 CP: Shock Troops
6 CP: Fear Propaganda Artillery
7 CP: ML-20 152mm Howitzer
9 CP: KV-8 Flamethrower Tank
12 CP: IL-2 Precision Bombing Strike

Anti-Infantry Tactics (revised)

1 CP: Shock Troops
4 CP: Recon Flight
6 CP: Fear Propaganda Artillery
6 CP: Incendiary Artillery
9 CP: IS-2 Heavy Tank*

* currently KV-8 Flamethrower Tank

Just as a point of discussion, really. Sadly I doubt Relic will ever change any of these paid commanders as I suppose in theory, if people were unhappy with the changes they could request a refund. I dunno how editing DLC stuff works in that regard.

Anyway, thoughts?

EDIT: Made the intended change a bit clearer.
EDIT2: Switched the change to be for the AI commander instead, after feedback on the KV-8 being perceived as a terror weapon, which is a very fair point.

Terror has KV8 too, not an IS-2.

I like terror more than Anti-Infantry because I think that Howitzer and IL-2 bombing run are more useful abilities than Recon Overflight and Incendiary Bombs.

Also Terror is better versus Elephant and Tiger ace because of all that arty

I know it has a KV-8... that's why I changed it to an IS-2.

The real question is whether relic would be willing to change some of the commanders at all. There hasn't been a switch in commander abilities since the beginning of the beta, and that was only because they switched the elephant to a doctrinal unit.

I asked Peter about this on Steam earlier and he said there are 'some complexities' but didn't rule it out.

Of the CE commanders, this is the only change I'd make, though. It's not about reshuffling the abilities for my own liking, it's just about making these two unique as they share the highest number of abilities of any two commanders. It also has the added bonus of giving the Soviets another commander with an IS-2 in, so it's a bit more equal with the Tiger.

I'll try and get an answer from someone in the know.

I asked Peter about this on Steam earlier and he said there are 'some complexities' but didn't rule it out.

Of the CE commanders, this is the only change I'd make, though. It's not about reshuffling the abilities for my own liking, it's just about making these two unique as they share the highest number of abilities of any two commanders. It also has the added bonus of giving the Soviets another commander with an IS-2 in, so it's a bit more equal with the Tiger.

I'll try and get an answer from someone in the know.

In my opinion, these two aren't the only old doctrines that could use some shuffling. I really wish relic would go though some of the lesser used doctrines and change them now that we know more about the meta.

That's much less likely to happen, though. I dislike the Storm Doctrine because it feels like the runt of the litter, but that may just be personal opinion and other people may like using it. I think it is by far the weakest commander because of its bizarre mix of abilites and misleading name.

That said, it does still feel different to other commanders and so in that sense it is okay. Terror/AI don't because of the high ability overlap. I reckon if they patched in the IS-2 instead of the KV-8 for Terror it'd solve a couple of issues.

Heh, maybe this is just down to mild OCD. I do think it is a sensible idea, though.

Yeah, agreed. It would also be nice if Fear Propaganda Artillery were a bit more useful/reliable.

I suppose you could give the IS-2 to the Anti-Infantry commander instead; someone on the official forum pointed out that the KV-8 is more suited to the Terror commander because of the association of flame tanks with terror tactics, which is a totally fair point.

Likewise, the IS-2 is a superb anti-infantry unit if well supported. So, I'd say the switch works for either commander, but I do take on board the point about the KV-8 being a terror weapon.

I think the terror doctrine is fine and has a theme that suits it's name. The anti-infantry tactics commander needs some work. The Fear propaganda artillery and the incendiary artillery both do the same thing and I would like to see one of them replaced with anti-infantry mines or maybe the DHSK; both fit the theme. Swapping the KV-8 with the IS-2 will also help to make the doctrine more unique.

Personally I like that it has access to both of those artillery types, and I do use them both with some success. I wouldn't change that myself, but I see your point.

I'm not convinced that adding the anti-personnel mines would achieve anything except making the Soviet Defensive commander even less useful than it already is. The main issue there is that tank traps are absolutely useless (literally *useless*, as opposed to just being rubbish) - but that's for another thread.

While I agree that more doctrines with an IS2 would be good, I don't necessarily think that 2 doctrines being very similar is always a bad thing.

For example relic might want the same set of abilities available with shocks and also in a different doctrine with guards.

This is about providing the choices they want players to have with units and abilities.

Like maybe I decided I want to play heavily with KV8s and ZiS, currently I've got good choice of which abilities I want to include with that strat.

Well Shock Troops can be classed as both specifically anti-infantry and more generally as a terror weapon, i.e. they are sort of analogous to Stormtroopers. So, I'd say they are fine for both, and obviously you'd want the Soviets' best anti-infantry unit for the Anti-Infantry commander, and Shocks fill that role. Guards wouldn't make as much sense because whilst useful against infantry when upgraded with LMGs, they are much more general purpose infantry.

Similarly, I don't think Guards would feel right for the Terror commander, and I agree with others' point about the KV-8 being a terror weapon.

As I said in the OP, though, the reason I have chosen to highlight these two commanders is because of their very high ability overlap, which is not a problem shared by the other vanilla or CE commanders.

As for the specific point of KV-8s and ZiS, you'd still have the Terror and Shock Rifle commanders. Personally I think it is better for general balance that the Soviets have access to three commanders with IS-2s rather than four with KV-8s (if we include Industry).