Grenadier potential: Fighting fire with fire

Jump back to quoted post12 Dec 2013, 20:42 PMMetaStable14

I'm fine with grens getting molotovs as long as Soviet Industry gets a much needed buff. Is it possible to knock that Tiger Ace up to 4-Star too? It just doesn't have enough oomph for the price.

Jump back to quoted post12 Dec 2013, 20:42 PMPaRaNo1a

I tried them... And maybe its the RNG God or something else but for me Soviet mortar feels much better( not the 120mm).

Jump back to quoted post12 Dec 2013, 20:54 PMNullist

I tried to give you chances to be reasonable. But you don't care.
Maybe you should play some Ost once in a while.

Jump back to quoted post12 Dec 2013, 20:54 PMNullist

Thats my last words to you.

Jump back to quoted post12 Dec 2013, 13:02 PMNullist

We have to remember what the most practical and IRL counters usually are, and what they entail.

Usually in the 6man vs 4man issue, there is an armor differential to mitigate small arms. OR, a cost one, such as on Guard at 1.5 aemor, or Shocks at 2.25.
This is not the case with Support Teams however.
For the same cost of purchase, Ost gets only 4 0 armor guys, whereas Sov gets 6 0 armor guys. And when reinforced, Sov gets 1.5 guys for every 1 guy Ost reinforces, at cost.

While its true that RNade has range, Sov Support Teams have extra models to soak that.
They also have those same extra models to soak small arms fire on a successful infantry flank.

On Osts side, however, not only does Molotov roast the units, which are tightly packed and have to categorically desetup to avoid certain eventual death from standing in it, but a successful infantry flank only has 4 0 armor models to deal with, rather than 6.

Basically, this means Ost Support Teams are not only more vulnerable to the standard infantry applied counter (Molotov/RNade), but they are also much more vulnerable to standard infantry flank small arms.

This imbalance however, extends from small arms fire, all the way to explosive later game effects, where even armor wouldnt matter. You can, simply, soak 1/3 more dmg from these as Sov, than you can as Oat, due to being only 4 man.

It wouldnt make any difference to a Molotov if they had armor. It wouldnt make any difference to Grenades, Mortars or other explosive effects either if they had armor.
All these conventional counter methods would still have full effect. But it doesnt end there. Becuase these counters have MORE effect, categorically and indisputably, on a 4 man unit as co pared to a 6 man unit.

But unfortunately, in addition to that, they are also more vulnerable to small arms flanks.
Not just a little either, but a full 1/3 more vulnerable.

How does this apply to spexific Support Teams? Well, Im glad you asked.
Its true that many Ost Suppoet Teams have beneficial stats on their main weapon.
But, are these not actually asymmetrically already balanced on Sov Teams?

PaK/ZiS: The primary difference is rate of fire. Osts is faster. But Sov has Barrage.

MG42/Maxim: Osts arc is matched by Sovs setup time. Osts DPS is entity based, Sovs is flat. Osts Suppression is now arguably inline with Sovs.

81mm/82mm: This one is more problematic, and most complicated of them. I think Osts fire rate is too high, compared to Sov. As far as I can tell from looking at stats, they are IDENTICAL except for the fire rate. Same AoE, same accuracy, same dmg. Ost Mortarnis infact categorically overperforming. It can be argued that the Vet abilities differentiate them, with Precision Strike being superior to Counter Barrage, and that may be true enough. But I think the baseline output should be adjusted. Vet can be dealt with later. Nonvet Ost Mortar is overperforming in comparison.

My primary suggestion to asymmetrically align this, is to give Sov 82mm a wider suppression AoE. This provides an indirect utility, so that even though you fire less shots (at the same dmg and accuracy) you can also force infantry down around your mortar hits.

Now, having gone over the actual Support Weapon stats, and demonstrated that they are in and of themselves asymmetrically aligned (except for Mortar), I am sure it is clear that the Crew survival differential is superfluous to those. The Weapon stats are aligned, but the Crew differential is an extrenuous unecessary imbalance.

Not only are the 4 man crews more vulnerable to simple small arms fire, but also to conventional early game counters, as well as later game explosives.

I cant find a justification for this. For the same cost, and as I demonstrated, for the same asymmetric value of the weapon itself (except for Mortar), Ost are operating at a 1/3 Crew survival deficiency against everything the opponent throws against them.

The least that could be done, is to make them less vulnerable to small arms at least.
Molotovs and Explosices will still own them at a 1/3 less survival quotient than Sov equivalents, because infsntry armor has no effect on those.

Not only that, but Ost Support Teams also cost MORE to reinforce per man, even though those men themselves have no more value than an equivalent man in a Sov Support Team.
Sov reinforces 1.5 models, for the same price Ost reinforces 1 model from an already undermanned weapon team. Add to this the games faction asymmetry when it comes to the difficult task of reinforcing Suppoet teams on the field, especially the PaK, which cannot retreat. What are our options? For Ost, they involve specialised builds, either a HT or a Re-inforce Bunker. For Sov, the option is only one, but all the more ubiquitous and readily at hand, Merge. Now, I think this is a good alignment. I have no issue with Sov/Ost onfield reinforce potential, as such. But when there is only 4man, with the vulnerability I have detailed above at length, it becomes somewhat of a real prarcial problem, especialoy in terms of reinforce costs.

Atleast make them more durable to small arms.
Is that so unreasonable to suggest, discuss and ask for?

Jump back to quoted post12 Dec 2013, 22:40 PMCieZ

German weapon teams are fine and don't need 6 man crews, Soviet weapon teams are fine at six men. The only issue is the strength of precision strike versus the uselessness of counter barrage.

Jump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 01:20 AMspajn

- Soviet support squads down to 4.

- Grenadier Riflegrenade replaced by Hand-thrown Grenade (Would fix imbalance with riflegrenade huge range vs only 4 guys on soviet support weapons)

Jump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 01:20 AMspajn

- Make Molotove first of all more expansive as an upgrade because right they could just remove the upgrade because EVERY soviet player has it researched by first engagement. Secondly make throw molotovs cost way more munitions so its not a no-brainer to ALWAYS throw molotovs. Also soviet never have to think of "do i throw molotovs or do i plant mines?" because soviet have way too much munnitions.

Jump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 01:22 AMAerohank

This would create much more balance problems than it will solve. Think about sniper rate of fire, mortar rate of fire, bundle grenades etc.




You have never played a game as soviets, have you?

Jump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 04:09 AMspajn

Everything can be tweaked and vcoh had 3 man support squads with mortars, snipers and stormtroopers who could cloak anywhere and bundlenade and it worked perfectly.

No i have never played soviets but every replay i watch soviet are never dry onn munitions and seems to not have to sacrifice anything special to spam the map full of mines... something ostheer could never do.. well atleast say goodbye to LMG and flamerHT.. you know tradeoffs.. as it should be.

Jump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 07:36 AMlink0

When I play soviets, I almost never float over 100 munitions. I also don't use any commanders with artillery call ins. I VERY RARELY even use Horrrah, because it's too expensive now. Almost all of my munitions go towards mines, molotovs, and guard rifle lmgs, and nades. Soviets are almost as munitions hungry as ostheer, IMO.

Jump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 07:36 AMlink0

When I play soviets, I almost never float over 100 munitions. I also don't use any commanders with artillery call ins. I VERY RARELY even use Horrrah, because it's too expensive now. Almost all of my munitions go towards mines, molotovs, and guard rifle lmgs, and nades. Soviets are almost as munitions hungry as ostheer, IMO.