MG 42 The Most Useless Unit In The Game

If you refer to retarded commanders that break with basic gamplay mechanics then the answer is NO! OH GOD NO!

If you refer to balance changes such as the veterancy overhaul or the +240mp start, then my answer is ok why not.

So should we be demoralized now?

Not sure how I could answer this question without breaking the NDA but I agree with this 100%:

Don't worry (I'm in beta).

There are far bigger issues.

Thing is that it's pointless to argue about the current state of the MG42 right now. We need more people in the beta, preferably none biased to factions (looking at Nullist) and certainly not Relic fanbois. There's a lot of things to be solved and the next patch is closing in.

(Looks at luddemans 0 1v1s. Laughs)

People are misusing the "flank" term.

Running, anywhere, through the arc is not ""flanking".

The problem with MG42s previous instasuppression was mostly people getting slightly winged by the arc and going Suppressed immediately. That had nothing to so with flanking, it had to do with the MG42s arc being an instasuppress zone. That was fixed.

Fyi, Maxim now suppresses around 1s faster than MG42, at ALL RANGES.

Flanking means you go wide around the arc, or pass behind hard LoS breakers to emerge outside the arc next to the unit. Not passing THROUGH the arc, lol.

2+ units running through the arc, is also not flanking. Thats assaulting with overwhelming force.

In general infantry doctrine IRL, there is a rule of thumb that you need 3x the force to even consider assaulting a HMG position. That is A) to be able to overcome attrition B) To bring more targets than the HMG can deal with C) To make it possible for some of the force to pass through the arc to be able to apply some fire on the HMG.

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And lol at some of these people from beta claiming its "pointless" for us to argue balance issues here. Its even more pathetic if you have already decided on matters internally in beta and DO NOT CONTINUE TO TEST AND QUESTION THEM.

Basically no point for such people on Beta. And even more pointless to try and mute discussion here.

Insteas you should be reading what is said here, and bring that feedbaxk to the Betas attention, not trying to shut people up here because you falsely think anything in the beta is set in stone and decided. Totally wrong attitude.

So cons can run up to a MG42 and hurl a Molotov on it. Yes - it happens, but please don't pretend it's a 100% because it's not.

I don't have stats on it, but in my experience it's more like 10%.

What often happens, though, is that the MG is being charged by TWO or more cons from different positions and one of them pulls of a molotov. I think this is fair enough even if both cons are in the arc, but spread out.

And btw.: frontal assault on MG Works for grens+nade as well. Where's the whining about that?

What often happens, though, is that the MG is being charged by TWO or more cons from different positions and one of them pulls of a molotov. I think this is fair enough even if both cons are in the arc, but spread out.

nah, not fair, you only need two cons squads to make an mg42 retreat no matter how you approach it, then you are left in superiority vs the grens.
and you will always have two or more cons squads.

The "run up to an MG and hurl a Molotov" problem and the randomness perceived by different people here is a result of the MG42 (and other HMGs) only doing 50% suppression against targets in light cover.
Even the smallest crater or tuft of grass can be enough to prevent the MG42 from suppressing and small patches of light cover are very plentifull. This affects the other two HMGs as well but not nearly as severely because they have a higher base suppression and thus are more often able to ignore the short effect of small light cover areas against suppression.

I think infantry just moving by a single tuft of grass should not receive the bonus but this probably isn't as easy to code. Even if some of the soldiers get the cover bonus, the HMG may target others that currently do not have the cover bonus, adding further to the perceived randomness.

A fix for this would be to buff the MG42 back to roughly the same suppression as the Maxim and adjust it in other ways. Its primary job is suppression and its current performance means it isn't adequately doing its suppression job, resulting in its low survivability becoming a huge liability and thus even good use of the unit being perceived as "simply not worth it" over other units.

It is really the same problem AT guns had (even worse) before they buffed their accuracy and the same problem mortars had before they changed buildings: Units that are not able to fill their primary job are not worth it. Support weapons are especially affected by that because their low mobility and lack of any flexibility means that if they can't fill their primary role, they do not have a secondary role to fall back on (or cannot use that secondary role because they are always either dead or running away).


Remember that the whole suppression system is working with thresholds: If the MG42 cannot reach the threshold for the suppressed state to kick in in a sensible manner, it doesn't really matter if the suppression it deals ends up at 40% or at 90% of the threshold.
The squad still doesn't go to the suppressed state and their suppression recovery isn't reduced (thus regenerating the suppression from the first burst pretty quickly). [disclaimer: Lower suppression recovery while suppressed was at least that is how suppression recovery worked in CoH1.]

No. It isnt.

Sorry it's a bit late reply somehow I've missed that one. Regarding Molotov's and rifle nade animation. The time might be the same, but moltov's throw got the most obvious one. When you compare them with rifle nade you got one guy kneeling for a short period of time and then small dot (representing grenade itself) lobbing towards enemy. When you use molotov you have one of the conscripts freeze in "the throwing stage" for a second or two making it more transparent and easier to spot. That's what I meant saying that the animation is shorter. I should have said "seems to be shorter".


Another thing about MG-42 is that because of the wide arc of fire is not always possible to go around it and do a proper flank. Sometimes you have to go through it but one could argue that's due to map design rather then anything else.
MG-42 could use a small suppression increase but then its pinning mechanics need to be re worked as no one wants instant pin nonsense to come back again. If they would make MG-42 to suppress better when squad is going through multiple yellow covers that should be enough.

Sorry it's a bit late reply somehow I've missed that one. Regarding Molotov's and rifle nade animation. The time might be the same, but moltov's throw got the most obvious one. When you compare them with rifle nade you got one guy kneeling for a short period of time and then small dot (representing grenade itself) lobbing towards enemy. When you use molotov you have one of the conscripts freeze in "the throwing stage" for a second or two making it more transparent and easier to spot. That's what I meant saying that the animation is shorter. I should have said "seems to be shorter".

No, you still dont get it.

The animation time is the same. The projectile time is ONTOP of the animation time, which is the same. Do you understand?

As to the actual animation, Molotov is a guy digging in his pockets, RNade is a guy kneeling with his rifle at an angle. Both are as obvious. Then in addition to that there is the RNades projectile time, which is easily the equal of a standard PGren/Guard Nade detonation timer, ontop of the animation timer.

It neither "seems to be shorter" nor "the time might be the same". It is the same.

As to MG42, thats the whole point to a wider arc.
You have to go around WIDER than that to flank.

I) The current MG42 is a liability.

a) It doesn´t work without support. So I need 480mp (Gren for support) to lock down one area. Meanwhile the Soviet player has used his manpower to actually cap the other 2/3rd of the map.

b) If used alone it WILL HAVE TO retreat being attacked by one Conscript squad. Either by being flanked, or by the Russians running up to it with Uraa and throwing a Molotov.

The MG42 is no longer a hard counter to infantry.


II) Now the Maxim

a) It actually suppresses infantry and can fight on it´s own. If flanked you can even try to reposition super fast.

b) It has 6 men and you can actually avoid a squad wipe with the rifle grenade (which almost never happens), if you see your men are standing close together and forming one big pile.


III) Dshka

Yet another and even better MG for the Russians. It mows down everything and this does make the MG42 look even more pitiful. Yet it shows us that a MG for 360mp can still be useful. I would love to see the old MG42 back - for 360mp though.

b) If used alone it WILL HAVE TO retreat being attacked by one Conscript squad. Either by being flanked, or by the Russians running up to it with Uraa and throwing a Molotov.

nah, first of all this happens when you had no extended LoS; but conscripts will always get suppressed, as soon as you see them hitting the ground pack the mg if you are in molotov range and reposition a few steps back, I do it all the time and it's an easy way to dodge the molotv and fend them off.
The real issue to me is this scenario that happens all the time:
Grens+MG vs 2xCons.
Cons 1 gets suppressed in mtv range, you have to reposition to dodge molotov as I said above, while Cons 2 didn't get suppressed and closes in, waiting for you to reposition and throw mtv: you are forced to retreat the mg leaving your grens in 2vs1

nah, first of all this happens when you had no extended LoS; but conscripts will always get suppressed, as soon as you see them hitting the ground pack the mg if you are in molotov range and reposition a few steps back, I do it all the time and it's an easy way to dodge the molotv and fend them off.
The real issue to me is this scenario that happens all the time:
Grens+MG vs 2xCons.
Cons 1 gets suppressed in mtv range, you have to reposition to dodge molotov as I said above, while Cons 2 didn't get suppressed and closes in, waiting for you to reposition and throw mtv: you are forced to retreat the mg leaving your grens in 2vs1

No. You are only forced to reposition. The retreat is just your choice. Or a forced action on your part because you didn't react in time.

I say all this is quite as it should be. And it makes no sense to pretend that MG+gren isn't a suitable match to two cons. Of course it is. It does depend on how you position them, obviously.

1) You can, deliberately, with 1 Con, exploit the MG42s 1s slower Suppression, by simply hitting Oorah and running right at it. Thanks to Oorah, the distance you cover in that one additional second EASILY puts you into Molotov range.

2) Spot a MG42? With 1 Con, Hit Oorah and run outside the arc to end up right next to it. DPS the pitiful 4 man crew, throw Molotov and watch them suffer de to longer setup time.

3) Approach through Yellow Cover. YOLO cant Suppress me!

4) With 2 Cons, np. I have 5 to spare. The above examples become even more effective, because the MG42 cant even handle the 1 Con, let alone 2.

Also I think that some of the nerfs should be reverted. Some nerfs were justified. But you have to keep in mind that from the OP state the MG42 received so many nerfs combined, that it became almost useless.

Things that really hit the MG42 hard:

- Suppression reduction
- Taking away the 10% more suppression bulletin (it is shown in the menu with a star - so it has become a veterancy gained bulletin)
- 25% more damage received for weapon crews

Two of those nerfs would have been sufficient. Not all three at once.

nah, first of all this happens when you had no extended LoS; but conscripts will always get suppressed, as soon as you see them hitting the ground pack the mg if you are in molotov range and reposition a few steps back, I do it all the time and it's an easy way to dodge the molotv and fend them off.
The real issue to me is this scenario that happens all the time:
Grens+MG vs 2xCons.
Cons 1 gets suppressed in mtv range, you have to reposition to dodge molotov as I said above, while Cons 2 didn't get suppressed and closes in, waiting for you to reposition and throw mtv: you are forced to retreat the mg leaving your grens in 2vs1

This is counterable.

Have your grens fire at the conscript that is not being fired at by the MG. Once the first squad is pinned (or suppressed far enough from the fight), immediately move the MG. Ignore the guys on the ground; they will stay that way for about 10 secs. Unpack the Mg and start moving it. The Soviet has two choices for his molotov; get in range of the grens, which gives the MG time to reposition and suppress them too, or run after the MG which leaves them open from more grenadier fire. Either way, the second squad should have to retreat fairly shortly due to losses/suppression, just as the first gets out of being pinned and now faces a 2v1 scenario. If your grenadier has a LMG, it's not even a contest.

I've done this several times. It gets tricky when 3 units are involved on both sides since it's harder to dodge a molotov, but it's definitely doable too. Keeping your MG firing at a pinned unit is a waste; you should reposition it as soon as you can to combat a flank.

Also, if your opponent has 5 conscripts, laugh and punish him with PGrens/a FHT. It's not a great build I find.

I)

III) Dshka

Yet another and even better MG for the Russians. It mows down everything and this does make the MG42 look even more pitiful. Yet it shows us that a MG for 360mp can still be useful. I would love to see the old MG42 back - for 360mp though.

Dshka ?! Something to eat ?

Forget that crappy gun... I would love to see the 20mm for 360mp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHQxtgPp7fM

Another factor in this is the change to the early game caused by the extra MP at start. soviet is no longer forced into conscript spam but can field a mixed skirmishing group which includes all the tools to take on mg's.

With this in mind, the sweet spot for it is not quite so perilously narrow - even in its old state it would not be quite the monster it was.

I am not suggesting this of course but I do think now it deserves just a little love.

Well, it allready did have a bit of its nerf reverted, AFAIR.

I dont know, I think mg42 has gone the way of the stug. The stug came roaring back from the dead in coh2 but then got reverted back to "most expensive green cover" status. After all the complaints the mg42 received I doubt it will ever be even half as useful again. Judging by the fact soviet preferenced players love it's current form of craptasticness, any buff that would make it even slightly more useful or capable of fulfilling its role will restart the complaint train rolling.

With this in mind, the sweet spot for it is not quite so perilously narrow - even in its old state it would not be quite the monster it was.

When you talk about it's old state, what patch do you refer to? For me personally the only problem the mg42 ever had was that retarded +10% suppression bulletin (although I didn't mind the changes to horizontal traverse speed etc.).

This is the most outstanding balance issue currently, barring DLC Commanders.

The MG42 is not doing its job adequately, especially considering the signficicant detractants it has as longer setup time, slower suppression and being only 4man.

The wider arc, better DPS and faster Pin, which are supposed to be its advantages, matter very little in actual ingame effect.

The Dusche is a separate DLC specific issue which also needs addressing, but it has certainly even more starkly highlighted how shitty the MG42 is.

I wouldn't go that far. I still find MG42 being a solid back bone to my German play. I agree it could use some suppression buff but please Relic don't revert it to the silliness it was at the beginning of CoH2. I know some players would like to have their easy mode back but majority of us don't.