Is Italian Combined Arms actually bad at combined arms?

It's called "Italian Combined Arms", I know, but when you get down to brass tacks, it really seems like using this BG for combined arms tactics is actually kind of a letdown.

Ok so, theoretically, "Italian Combined Arms" means literally that, you are playing combined arms with Italian units, because Bersags actually don't have any combined arms bonus, it's like a reverse combined arms bonus where the Carro Armato benefits from nearby *Italian* units. The Semovente, on the other hand, doesn't even benefit from being near Italian infantry.

Ok, so, you think: "I want to take advantage of this bonus and I will build some bersaglieri". Joke's on you, bersas actually suck at supporting tanks. They sprint, they throw nades, and they're fast outside of combat. Do they repair? No. Do they have AT grenades? Nah. Do they benefit from being near tanks? Only if you're okay with gimping the squad's fighting capabilities.

And all this for a measly, piddly, +5% reload speed bonus on the Armato for every Italian unit standing near the tank.

Really?

And on top of that, bersas only get one Breda now, so if you want to boost their effectiveness around tanks, you have to double nerf them and give up on the extra squad member too.

This BG is just not made for 4v4 and it's sad. I'm sure that in 1v1 this allows for a really fast and loose playstyle, sliding along the battlefield on the seat of your pants, with 5 man bersas taking points quick alongside tanks, smothering the opponent Soviet style, but for 4v4, this isn't an Italian Combined Arms doctrine at all. It's just Bersaglieri doctrine.

And if you're about to write "just play with panzergrens instead", then believe me I've done that. It's okay. Really it's mediocre. If you don't build Bersas then there's really no incentive to build the Carro at all. It's 50 goddamn fuel and the Stuart can bounce it. It's nothing to write home about.

Very sad doctrine. Hopefully it makes more sense in small gamemodes.

Yes I'm aware Pact of Steel is pretty nice. No I do not think Marder spam is fun or engaging or "combined arms".

This used to be my main doc..until the huge breda nerf.

This used to be my main doc..until the huge breda nerf.

Yea thought that nerf was slightly overkill. Needed a nerf, but that was a big one for sure

Historically accurate nerf tho, breda was terrible in the actual war lol

They buffed the M13 with smoke and overall the T1 repair speed upgrade is also a boost to them. Bersa is in a weird spot, I never call them and prefer the vision and capture bonus from their tree side than breda upgrade.

Never really used Bersas, pretty much exclusively picked the doc for its ability to buff up Panzergrens with the Breda/LMG combo. Helped a lot back when they were the weakest mainline in the game. Now they definitely aren't so weak but Combined Arms does seem to have been gutted.

They buffed the M13 with smoke...

That's true. The extra 40 hp and smoke is nice. Still, that doesn't really help the fact that it's bad for combined arms using the BG infantry lmao.

...overall the T1 repair speed upgrade is also a boost to them.

Right... if you don't use Bersas lmfao. I don't think anyone plays DAK with two panzerpios but I guess you're obligated to if you build the funny jogging italian troops.

Look, here's my point:

For a BG about "Combined Arms", it's a little silly that one of the units you call in is literally made to bypass the Combined Arms bonus.

If you want to effectively use combined arms, you don't build Bersaglieri, you build Panzergrenadiers.

And if you build Panzergrenadiers, the Carro only benefits from nearby Italian tanks. So at most, maybe you have two Carro Armatos with +10% reload bonus (A semovente, 2x Carro, which I doubt anyone builds because it's pretty prohibitively expensive compared to just getting a marder and an 8-Rape Armored Gape). And that's only if you wolfpack them around.

Why would you spend all that extra fuel on a bunch of tanks that only perform a little better or are just a sidegrade? I didn't find the Semovente to be so good that it's a game changer compared to just getting a marder and a 254 to deal with MGs. I didn't find the Carro to be all that much of an upgrade to the 8-Rape.

These tanks occupy the same timing of the Marder and 8-Rad and at the same time, cost more and are only marginal improvements over them, or even just a straight sidegrade. Am I missing something or what?

That's true. The extra 40 hp and smoke is nice. Still, that doesn't really help the fact that it's bad for combined arms using the BG infantry lmao.



Right... if you don't use Bersas lmfao. I don't think anyone plays DAK with two panzerpios but I guess you're obligated to if you build the funny jogging italian troops.

Look, here's my point:

For a BG about "Combined Arms", it's a little silly that one of the units you call in is literally made to bypass the Combined Arms bonus.

If you want to effectively use combined arms, you don't build Bersaglieri, you build Panzergrenadiers.

And if you build Panzergrenadiers, the Carro only benefits from nearby Italian tanks. So at most, maybe you have two Carro Armatos with +10% reload bonus (A semovente, 2x Carro, which I doubt anyone builds because it's pretty prohibitively expensive compared to just getting a marder and an 8-Rape Armored Gape). And that's only if you wolfpack them around.

Why would you spend all that extra fuel on a bunch of tanks that only perform a little better or are just a sidegrade? I didn't find the Semovente to be so good that it's a game changer compared to just getting a marder and a 254 to deal with MGs. I didn't find the Carro to be all that much of an upgrade to the 8-Rape.

These tanks occupy the same timing of the Marder and 8-Rad and at the same time, cost more and are only marginal improvements over them, or even just a straight sidegrade. Am I missing something or what?

You're missing the point they don't need specific tier to be called, and M13 work in pack of 2 or 3. M13 are also good enough to soft counter Stuarts and Chaffees unlike any other DAK LVs.

Bersa would probably be OP to have them work with CA and retaining enough firepower without it. Those are already running fast enough and as long range squad they would obliterate anything trying to close to them.

So anyway, as 1vs1 player I don't see what you don't like about this BG, but maybe on teamgame the fact that it is solely a midgame powerspike BG makes it have less value.

Bersa would probably be OP to have them work with CA and retaining enough firepower without it. Those are already running fast enough and as long range squad they would obliterate anything trying to close to them.

So anyway, as 1vs1 player I don't see what you don't like about this BG, but maybe on teamgame the fact that it is solely a midgame powerspike BG makes it have less value.

1v1s you usually have to get the T1 fire support elements upgrade I think.

It's viable in 4v4 to skip fire support elements and go for T2 quickly for the early 254 or marder.

Spending points on nothing else in the BG but the Semovente and the Carro usually brings the Carro out after the Marder in 4v4 timing.

This isn't really a "buff the Carro Armato (or Bersaglieri)" thread, its more me complaining that Italian Combined Arms isn't really better at combined arms than the stock roster is if you play with Bersas and the Carro.

It's just... you give up on the Combined Arms bonus, repair, and AT grenades for out-of-combat sprint and that's really all they have going for them. Their ability grid feels barren lmfao like it's unfinished or something.

I think it really is just better in 1v1 than 4v4 and that's all there is to it.

...M13 work in pack of 2 or 3. M13 are also good enough to soft counter Stuarts and Chaffees unlike any other DAK LVs.

I *could* build 2 M13s, or I could just build another marder to pair with the one I already built by the time the Carro is available, then get an 8-Rad and *still* have spent less fuel in total.

It's a cool tank, I like it. It's just objectively worse to me than just using default units.

The m13 is basically a crusader once you have all the upgrades. a worse one but still good.