Is Vickers K moving accuracy is really 60%?

According to the changelog, Vickers K should have moving accuracy of 60%.

I know there is a lot more stats involved in moving dps, but my test shows that
2-men Tommy with 2 Vickers K equipped takes
about 35 sec. to wipe osttrupen squad,
and takes more than 2 min. 8 sec in move. I'm saying "more than" because they couldn't wipe entire squad until the moving order is finished at the near end of the map. (I honestly thought it would end much sooner than this and couldn't bother to test another).

So it takes about x3.65+ times more to deal same dmg. in move. Which kinda makes sense if Vickers K has 25% moving accuracy instead of 60% as changelog suggests.


I know the CoH2 is unofficially not-maintained, but could you please do check stat for a sake of poor UKF?

BAR has 70% accuracy but around 47% DPS on the move so the connection is far from linear.

BAR has 70% accuracy but around 47% DPS on the move so the connection is far from linear.

I think you are lost on the thread. I haven't said anything about bar in this thread.

I think you are lost on the thread. I haven't said anything about bar in this thread.

I am responding to this :
"So it takes about x3.65+ times more to deal same dmg. in move. Which kinda makes sense if Vickers K has 25% moving accuracy instead of 60% as changelog suggests."

I used BAR as example because there are meant to be similar, if you take a bolt action or LMG the connection between moving accuracy modifier and DPS would probably be even less linear.

I am not even sure why you are focusing exclusively on accuracy...

Congrats though interesting testing.

I am responding to this :
"So it takes about x3.65+ times more to deal same dmg. in move. Which kinda makes sense if Vickers K has 25% moving accuracy instead of 60% as changelog suggests."

I used BAR as example because there are meant to be similar, if you take a bolt action or LMG the connection between moving accuracy modifier and DPS would probably be even less linear.

Oh, okay. I see your point.

Just for the reference, did same test with 2 bar.

Takes 40 sec. in stationary (which is somewhat close to the Vickers K) & 1 min. 7 sec. while in move to wipe the squad. about x2 times faster than Vickers K.

I used BAR as example because there are meant to be similar, if you take a bolt action or LMG the connection between moving accuracy modifier and DPS would probably be even less linear.

Well, bar & Vickers K both are LMG and ppl tend to say Vickers K is somewhat "clone" of the bar. So it would be logical to assume they do share similar stats. Right?

I am not even sure why you are focusing exclusively on accuracy...

That's because as I have spoked in other thread, the site I use to check stat of the CoH2 units says vickers K has different stat from the changelog.

From the site:
Vickers K
accuracy: 67.5%/54.5%/37.5%
range: 4/16/35
...
moving accuracy: 25%
moving burst: 75%
moving cooldown: 75%

And I quote here the original author about his comment on Vickers K:
" 또, 이동사격이 가능해졌는데, 패치로그와 다르게 이동명중 보정이 25%로 매우 나빠져서, 돌격 중에는 제대로 맞추기 힘들어졌습니다. 암만 봐도 버그같다..."

Roughly translating it to
"... and fire while moving is possible now, but unlike the patch log, moving accuracy modifer is 25% which is very low, you hardly can expect them to hit anything while in move. Seems like the bug for sure..."

So the author of the site is well aware of the changelog, and he does parse the data from the in-game somehow. And saying the in-game data is differ from the changelog.

And let's be honest here. It's not the first time Lelic made a mistake like this.

Same changelog says Raid section can upgrade 1 Vickers K with 60 muni. when drops one, but they actually can't.

Burst duration is down for sure, which is also normal.

But just judging by the fact that the models take ages to drop and no real damage is done while firing, the accuracy modifier must be pretty low too I assume.

Judging by the fact that the first 3 models dropped in roughly 30 second intervals, the Vickers K seems to have 1.3 DPS on the move at range ~20. A BAR at this range has roughly 4 DPS according to my sheet. Balance team must have made a very bad mistake while trying to copy stats back then.

BAR has 70% accuracy but around 47% DPS on the move so the connection is far from linear.

The Vicker k 's moving acc is still questionable but from the test and from my understanding, the total dps on the move seem to be bellow 1/3 (more than 3x time to deal same amount of dmg).
If all of this is true, For the same cost and role compare to Bar (47%) vicker k 's moving dps is way too low.

The Vicker k 's moving acc is still questionable but from the test and from my understanding, the total dps on the move seem to be bellow 1/3 (more than 3x time to deal same amount of dmg).
If all of this is true, For the same cost and role compare to Bar (47%) vicker k 's moving dps is way too low.

My point is simply moving accuracy modifier and DPS on the move are not linear related.

BAR has 70% accuracy modifier yet it has around 47% DPS on the move which means that the weapon lose another 23% DPS due to things like sorter burst, longer CD and longer reload.

To make thing even worse the out of cover penalties that apply to tommies can have completely different effect in different automatic weapons that use different magazines and different burst.

In sort if one want to determine the accuracy of Vicker K on the move one would have an easier time using a different squad than tommies with their penalty that makes thing more complicated for no apparent reason.

Finally if according to the test the moving DPS is below 1/3 (or even 1/4) of standing DPS that is an indication that moving modifier is not 25% since it also lose DPS for other reasons like burst duration/CD/Reload.

Burst duration is down for sure, which is also normal.

But just judging by the fact that the models take ages to drop and no real damage is done while firing, the accuracy modifier must be pretty low too I assume.

Judging by the fact that the first 3 models dropped in roughly 30 second intervals, the Vickers K seems to have 1.3 DPS on the move at range ~20. A BAR at this range has roughly 4 DPS according to my sheet. Balance team must have made a very bad mistake while trying to copy stats back then.

Are talking about the DPS of BAR in riflemen hands or Tommies hands with their out of cover penalty?

We also need to keep in mind that Vicker K primarily balanced around Raid section (and secondary Sappers) and not in for tommies.

Are talking about the DPS of BAR in riflemen hands or Tommies hands with their out of cover penalty?

We also need to keep in mind that Vicker K primarily balanced around Raid section (and secondary Sappers) and not in for tommies.

The out of cover penalty is indeed not factored in into the 4 DPS. What were the modifiers here?

If Vickers K is balanced only to Raid Sections but not to the M3 handing out weapons, it's just another testimony on how badly this new Vickers K concept has been though about...

The out of cover penalty is indeed not factored in into the 4 DPS. What were the modifiers here?
...

The original modifier where CD increase by 20% reload by 40% there might have been some changes since then but I have not gone through the patch notes to check.

summary:
1/ Vicker K had 30% moving acc not 60%, a scam weapon !
2/ Tommy need 35 fuel, 120 ammo, staying cover and yet lose to Ass green charging. (Confirm through test).
3/ If Vicker K is only for Ass Tommy, then why it stay on Heavy sapper and M3 ?. And yet why it suit for UKF officer ?

I am really disappointed about balance team and who defend them in this case....

That's because as I have spoked in other thread, the site I use to check stat of the CoH2 units says vickers K has different stat than the changelog.

From the site:
Vickers K
accuracy: 67.5%/54.5%/37.5%
range: 4/16/35
...
moving accuracy: 25%
moving burst: 75%
moving cooldown: 75%

And I quote here the original author about his comment on Vickers K:
" 또, 이동사격이 가능해졌는데, 패치로그와 다르게 이동명중 보정이 25%로 매우 나빠져서, 돌격 중에는 제대로 맞추기 힘들어졌습니다. 암만 봐도 버그같다..."

Roughly translating it to
"... and fire while moving is possible now, but unlike the patch log, moving accuracy modifer is 25% which is very low, you hardly can expect them to hit anything while in move. Seems like the bug for sure..."

So the author of the site is well aware of the changelog, and he does parse the data from the in-game somehow. And saying the in-game data is differ from the changelog.

And let's be honest here. It's not the first time Lelic made a mistake like this.

Same changelog says Raid section can upgrade 1 Vickers K with 60 muni. when drops one, but they actually can't.

This is very interesting! Unfortunately, I don't speak any Korean so I can't check or use the info on the site you linked, but if the author indeed found a way to parse the current unit stats in some way that would be huge. I've tried to extract those from the game files before but haven't found any way to read or convert relics .rgd format into a readable form (there's a DoW3 .rgd converter out there but I couldn't make it work for CoH2). Do you have any info by chance on how they did this?

Anyway, if you want to exclude the effect of accuracy on the test results (as Vipper and Hannibal said above, there's also the possibility of other penalties for burst length, cooldown, etc. to apply while moving, so the much lower moving DPS might not purely be due to lower moving accuracy alone), one way to do it is to test stationary and moving DPS against a modded entity with high target size (20 or higher). That way there's no chance to miss in either case and if you get roughly the same DPS for both stationary and moving, the difference in the in-game case is purely a result of lower moving accuracy.

I, too, would not be surprised if the low moving DPS was in fact due to an oversight or typo. Wouldn't be the first time this has happened for sure.

but if the author indeed found a way to parse the current unit stats in some way that would be huge. I've tried to extract those from the game files before but haven't found any way to read or convert relics .rgd format into a readable form (there's a DoW3 .rgd converter out there but I couldn't make it work for CoH2). Do you have any info by chance on how they did this?

It seems we had something called "CoH2_RGDTools_v1.2a" dedicated for the CoH2 RGD conversion. Which got lost when relicforum died. But some Korean users including the author had local copy of the file.

I already have asked author if he can share the file with me, and would it be okay for me to publish it.
I hope to have a positive feedback. If I do, I'll share the file

Anyway, if you want to exclude the effect of accuracy on the test results (as Vipper and Hannibal said above, there's also the possibility of other penalties for burst length, cooldown, etc. to apply while moving, so the much lower moving DPS might not purely be due to lower moving accuracy alone), one way to do it is to test stationary and moving DPS against a modded entity with high target size (20 or higher). That way there's no chance to miss in either case and if you get roughly the same DPS for both stationary and moving, the difference in the in-game case is purely a result of lower moving accuracy.

I, too, would not be surprised if the low moving DPS was in fact due to an oversight or typo. Wouldn't be the first time this has happened for sure.

I think further test is not necessary. Now we know that the site owner already parsed-and-witnessed the moving accuracy being 0.25 - It's kinda clear that dev. team made number mistakes for Vickers K. And we (hopefully) will see that with our own eyes in near future.


BTW, if this is true, will there be another bug-fix patch to fix this? If so, please patch Raid section to upgrade 1 Vickers K with 60 muni if it drops one.

I mean... I won't use that squad anyway, but at least it deserves what it is written on the changelog. Right?

It seems we had something called "CoH2_RGDTools_v1.2a" dedicated for the CoH2 RGD conversion. Which got lost when relicforum died. But some Korean users including the author had local copy of the file.

I already have asked author if he can share the file with me, and would it be okay for me to publish it.
I hope to have a positive feedback. If I do, I'll share the file

Yeah, CoH2_RGDTools is definitely the missing piece for extracting the stats from the live version. I've been trying to get my hands on this for quite some time already but to no avail since, as you said, all links to the file seem to have died long time ago. Would be absolutely awesome and much appreciated if you, or the author of the site you quoted, were so kind as to share it.

Also agree that another hotfix down the road addressing this (and potential other issues still waiting to be discovered) would be really sweet. Very likely not gonna happen, but I'd love to stand corrected

I think further test is not necessary. Now we know that the site owner already parsed-and-witnessed the moving accuracy being 0.25 - It's kinda clear that dev. team made number mistakes for Vickers K. And we (hopefully) will see that with our own eyes in near future.


BTW, if this is true, will there be another bug-fix patch to fix this? If so, please patch Raid section to upgrade 1 Vickers K with 60 muni if it drops one.

I mean... I won't use that squad anyway, but at least it deserves what it is written on the changelog. Right?

On the contrary Imo it is pretty clear that moving accuracy modifier is not actually 0.25 since that would probably result at moving DPS of around 15% and the test indicates something more in the lines of 33%.

Actually it very easy to get the stats of the wrong weapons since the name of the weapon are not really helpful.

Actually I would suggest you if he has all the values to provide this stats to Hannibal and request from him to calculate the theoretical DPS and the check that with in game tests.

The original modifier where CD increase by 20% reload by 40% there might have been some changes since then but I have not gone through the patch notes to check.

According to the attribute editor, this is still the case. Can't find anything in the patch notes, so I assume this is still true.

On the contrary Imo it is pretty clear that moving accuracy modifier is not actually 0.25 since that would probably result at moving DPS of around 15% and the test indicates something more in the lines of 33%.

Actually it very easy to get the stats of the wrong weapons since the name of the weapon are not really helpful.

Actually I would suggest you if he has all the values to provide this stats to Hannibal and request from him to calculate the theoretical DPS and the check that with in game tests.

This should bring down the hypothetic IS with BAR at range 20 to 3.6 DPS, compared to the shakily estimated 1.3 of the Vickers. If I recalculate with 0.25 accuracy on the move, the BAR goes down to 1.2 DPS.

So I assume balance team screwed up that part and the moving accuracy is indeed 0.25.

According to the attribute editor, this is still the case. Can't find anything in the patch notes, so I assume this is still true.


This should bring down the hypothetic IS with BAR at range 20 to 3.6 DPS, compared to the shakily estimated 1.3 of the Vickers. If I recalculate with 0.25 accuracy on the move, the BAR goes down to 1.2 DPS.

So I assume balance team screwed up that part and the moving accuracy is indeed 0.25.

I still have to point out that BAR and Vickers probably use different reload/CD/burst duration so the idea that because something applies to BAR would apply Vickers does might not be accurate. If that site has the full stat of the weapon I would still suggest to use them calculate the theoretical DPS.

Finally I really suggest to stop using IS for this calculation for two reasons:

1) the cover penalties are unnecessary complications

2) the mechanics of obtaining the weapon are different so the version of the raid section/officer/Heavy sapper can be different and if there is an error it might not be on the stat of Vicker's itself but the "version" of the weapon itself.

I still have to point out that BAR and Vickers probably use different reload/CD/burst duration so the idea that because something applies to BAR would apply Vickers does might not be accurate. If that site has the full stat of the weapon I would still suggest to use them calculate the theoretical DPS.

This might be the case, but the 0.25 accuracy explains what we see.
In the end it does not matter what actually causes the DPS drop. The Vickers K, at the very least when handed out by the M3 to IS, seems to work very differently from the BAR and does not work great on the move, which was the whole point of the patch.

Finally I really suggest to stop using IS for this calculation for two reasons:

1) the cover penalties are unnecessary complications

2) the mechanics of obtaining the weapon are different so the version of the raid section/officer/Heavy sapper can be different and if there is an error it might not be on the stat of Vicker's itself but the "version" of the weapon itself.

Then feel free to provide some data for other squads, just like leithianz did for IS.

If the problem lies within the version of the Vickers, than testing IS is actually essential to find that out.