The problem with USF Rear Echelon Squads

"Tank traps are useless vs MG42s because they are so weirdly modeled that the MG42 will always suppress in a burst or two any squad behind the line of tank traps (2+)"

Kind of off-topic, - But more helpful & productive than Vipper's word play -

but it is better to build two tank traps one in a horizontal & one in a vertical way. Using shift-build ease the pain of micro, and it is super effective.

Probably because if you build two tank traps in a row with drag, there is a gap between two tank trap that doesn't provide green cover. Building two tank traps in a different direction removes that gap.

Talking of micro of USF tips,

one more very useful micro for USF is when highly dmged infs. are retreated, take medic out of the AMB and use the healing skill(not sure of the name), and put medic back to AMB and turn on the healing. The healing aura from medic & AMB overlaps so the speed of healing is twice (or similar) as fast.

Kind of off-topic, - But more helpful & productive than Vipper's word play -

Actually other stared with word plays and the trolling

but it is better to build two tank traps one in a horizontal & one in a vertical way. Using shift-build ease the pain of micro, and it is super effective.

Probably because if you build two tank traps in a row with drag, there is a gap between two tank trap that doesn't provide green cover. Building two tank traps in a different direction removes that gap.

Talking of micro of USF tips,

one more very useful micro for USF is when highly dmged infs. are retreated, take medic out of the AMB and use the healing skill(not sure of the name), and put medic back to AMB and turn on the healing. The healing aura from medic & AMB overlaps so the speed of healing is twice (or similar) as fast.

Glad to see that you agree that Protos Angelus claim is false.

BS

Some development in the frontal lobe, higher cognitive functions. Ok, nice. We are getting there.
Now the problem here is that you used a highly unlikely scenario, with the MG42 being way back and ground elevation in the way and 4 man echelon squad behind. Not to worry. Expected from underdeveloped lobes, you'll get there. Good job anyway.



As you can see here, a this is a more realistic scenario, and here rifles got suppressed in 2 bursts due to the holes in the traps, and being 5 man. Don't worry, you'll get to higher cognitive functions like reading with understanding to see that I talked about 5 man squads like rifles and volks have problems with cover (more models-more chances of models fu****g everything up). Again, don't worry friend, you'll get there. English is a most difficult language, even for the fully developed.

but it is better to build two tank traps one in a horizontal & one in a vertical way. Using shift-build ease the pain of micro, and it is super effective.

Probably because if you build two tank traps in a row with drag, there is a gap between two tank trap that doesn't provide green cover. Building two tank traps in a different direction removes that gap.

Talking of micro of USF tips,

one more very useful micro for USF is when highly dmged infs. are retreated, take medic out of the AMB and use the healing skill(not sure of the name), and put medic back to AMB and turn on the healing. The healing aura from medic & AMB overlaps so the speed of healing is twice (or similar) as fast.

If placed on the front line (fuel,VP), I usually place both horizontally using shift and escape. Tried the vertical-horizontal double, but it's highly dependent on what's around it. If there is some sort of yellow cover or a small bush or a small fence, the sticky cover will fu** it up. At least from my experience (4 models get into cover and one goes behind to yellow cover or somewhere "far" away) even with right-click drag into cover. I also don't generally like placing tank traps as they can fu** up pathing a lot, and I often play with the AAHT and that vehicle can be a menace when it comes to pathfinding/rotation. Double horizontal tank traps are hard to pull off ever since the 64bit patch. Hate the fact that the "red" outline was removed and now if the object cannot be placed, it will just be invisible. Royally fu***d up... but still, double horizontal can deny suppression for a much longer time.

As for the ambo, wasn't it "fixed" so that it no longer overlaps? I knew it was a "Feature" some time ago but wasn't it fixed in the update that also added medics to the brits (large medic update). Will try it. Thank you!

but it's highly dependent on what's around it. If there is some sort of yellow cover or a small bush or a small fence, the sticky cover will fu** it up. At least from my experience (4 models get into cover and one goes behind to yellow cover or somewhere "far" away) even with right-click drag into cover. I also don't generally like placing tank traps as they can fu** up pathing a lot,

True story, TBH I don't use tank traps other than first few min. because it doesn't work as expected much of the time...

Double horizontal tank traps are hard to pull off ever since the 64bit patch. Hate the fact that the "red" outline was removed and now if the object cannot be placed, it will just be invisible. Royally fu***d up... but still, double horizontal can deny suppression for a much longer time.

Seriously... I'm pretty sure devs are not even aware of the fact that they removed it.

As for the ambo, wasn't it "fixed" so that it no longer overlaps? I knew it was a "Feature" some time ago but wasn't it fixed in the update that also added medics to the brits (large medic update). Will try it. Thank you!

Yes they still exists. I still use it all the time. Trust me, it's real game changer. You no longer have to see riflemens sitting in the base waiting to reach full health even after 4 men recruited.

I would maybe even say they can do AT pretty well with 2x zooks. Its far from the best AT squad but its very cost effective and pretty solid at vet 3

this is true
Volley fire could be slightly better, but it's easy for that to become OP

aye, i think when they double nerfed it they should have only single nerfed it (iirc they gutted the power AND added the target size debuff at the same time, one or the other would have been a better route imo

That would be true if pios were the same or CEs for that matter.
RE are a different unit, in a different faction than both pios and CE and they fill a different role entirely, so this is frankly irrelevant
Rear echelons have one early game utility... lay tank traps.
thats finer and all, but for some players the game progresses past this point. when you get there you will start to see the value in RE
Tank traps are useless vs MG42s because they are so weirdly modeled that the MG42 will always suppress in a burst or two any squad behind the line of tank traps (2+).
mg42s are working as intended. they are in a defensive faction sporting small squad sizes and low burst damahge. controlling the enemy infantry is how ost survives
They are decently useful to hold against pushes, as they are green cover, but besides that, useless (ok, harder to destroy than sandbags).

They lay useless mines.
this is false if you look at them outside of a vacuum. are they tellers? no. but they ARE in a V>RY munitions' thirsty faction. its better to have a cheap mine you can actually throw up, than a good mine that you never get the chance to lay. whats more, due to the aggressive and mobile design of USF coupled with their squishy armour, having the ability to slow a wide front is incredible useful. as other factions less so, but for USF they are the perfect mine for their needs. and its not like you lose the ability to lay proper mines if you WANT to, the scout car has super mines, ass engies have mines and rifles can lay em too in certain commanders. give RE regular mines and you have made 3 abilities nearly pointless. jackson balance 2.0
Their only real useful utility are the caches (later on) and carrying zooks to deter P4 dives (even later, after BARs).
this is false, RE provide a lot of utility, including access to smoke.

Now I've done the tests and I found the following:

Rear echelon behind green cover, solo pio charging over neutral cover: Pio wins with 2 models remaining, echelon retreats with 1 model. Only way to stop is to use muni for the volley.
thats great, but irrelevant. if you look closely, pios and RE are not in the same factions are not balanced around each other. they fill different roles entirely, with some overlap. you would bve just as well of using the results of charging an mg42 against a rifle squad if you want to ignore roles.

The test where Rifles charge pioneers behind green cover, over neutral terrain: Rifles win with 2 models remaining on average, pios retreat with 1 model.
So on one hand, an engineer unit can charge another engineer unit and win easily, but a mainline unit doing the same thing to the engineer unit (pioneer) will win a Pyrrhic victory. You will bleed more than pios, and let the incoming grens/MG42 do the job easily.
yes. thats the early game role of pios. they scout and defend against aggressive pushes. thats literally their job. unless you expect grens to fight off rushing rifles or expecting the mg42 crew to fend for itself.. combined arms is supposed to be a feature of the game, not the basis for a whine post..
God forbid you play on a lane-y map where you can't flank and the MG42's wide arc can easily cover 2+ points.
good thing usf hasw a smoke dispenser at t0 (two even, if you cant the REs ability to do so) if the enemy can use combined arms why cant you?

The first skirmish is echelon vs pio, pio wins. By the time your rifles come to the frontline, so does the MG42.... good luck. If you decide to wait for the rifles to join the echelons to have a 2v2, then you're in for a treat because on most 3v3+ maps you really need to take the long way around (grens come) to flank. Not to mention that you need to chase down an MG42 while pios are closing in and putting a hurt on you.
entirely a L2P problem mate. lots of people not just manage, but obliterate ostheer as USF. stick in cover and focus fire the pios, then you outnumber the MG. pios have a target size of 1, and 4 models... its really a non isssue with proper target prioritization. forcing off the support of an mg42 forces off the mg as well, because if yo cap that its GG then and there.

Also did the following test. Pios vs rifles, pios come around the sight blocker (test done on beach Across the rheine, bushes around the neutral point below the hill).

Rifles standing still in neutral cover, pios come from neutral cover and the whole skirmish is with both units in neutral cover... just to show the close range power of pios... pios retreated with 1 model, rifles with 2 models. 4 times in a row... 4 model pio put a hurt on 5 model 280 MP rifles close range, neutral cover.
bad tsest that doesnt emulate in game scenarios. no ost player is going to yolo their pio into a retreat, because even 2 rifle models is enough to force of their mg
One thing I've learned from experience is: If you are fighting rifle + echelon vs pio + gren... And the pio is charging... Even if the grens are in red cover, focus the pios first. If they get close enough, both echelons and rifles will go down quickly. I know because it happened to me last game. Didn't even notice a pio charging, both rifles and echelon were behind yellow cover ( I was fighting on a different part of the map and I can easily press "1" and "T" in case of a rifle nade). Rifles and echelon were firing at the neutral cover gren, while pios literally mowed down both echelon and rifles to 1-2 models each, as they closed in point blank. Close in point blank with echelons and you'll have enough time to boil some tea before echelons kill anything
yes, thats how relative positioning works. do you have a story about how if you ignore an AT gun itll take out your tanks too? of hopw if you leave a sniper to sit at range without interacting they will wipe your squad? its a game. it requires you to play it, if you dont you will lose, and that isnt a balance issue

Of course, as time goes by, you get the flamer to scale, at which point rifles lose until double BARs come (or win a Pyrrhic victory). Later on, there is no way for the pios to win in any way-shape or form against rifles, as expected. But the opening skirmishes in teamgames, OST is vastly superior to USF in 90% of scenarios. Heck, if I see that I have a spawn against OST on a lane-y map in my VP lane, I just ignore it and help my teammate 2v1 on the next closest lane.
Not only are most green cover positions designed for 4 model squads, but the idea of rifles being short range specialists makes them useless in long range cover to cover skirmishes against grens and MG42. Only those long tanks/pick-up truck/sandbags green covers can actually fit a whole squad of 5 models (hence why volks have sandbags).
rifles are not short range specialists, they are goodd at all ranges but will lose to specialists. it sounds like you issue lies more in not understanding the facrtion or unit roles. USF is able to, and expected to, adapt to the enemy strat. if they are using lonmg range units you close, if they are using close range units, sit inm cover and trade favorably.
Most green cover objects will deceive you and you'll get insta suppressed, or you'll lose that one model very quickly. That + the fact that tank traps are completely unreliable really shows why USF is seldom played in higher ranks and why you really need to put a lot more micro into your gameplay to win teamgames. Retarded map design coupled with rifles being only good on close range (exceptionally good, but so are pios/spios)
ay yes, its definitely the game that is screwing you, especially when you ignore closing SMG infantry while shooting at other targets...


So in the end, REs don't really have early game utility. They don't have late game utility in the form of mine planting. Their only real utility is the fact that they can carry double zooks, which can be used defensively against tank dives.
if you ignore everything else you are right! they can repair, recrew, get an extra model, get smoke, can build fightijng pits, and then fire nades from them over sight blockers. they get cheap minbes that can paint the map, they can be adapted into AT or AI, depending on your needs. they are a great and versatile tool, and exactly what USF needs without overlapping with rifles, who are your fighting unit And it's not like those zooks are free on them. It still costs 100 Muni and can often mean that you won't be able to plant doctrinal mines or use other abilities as much as you would want
yes, this is how in game economies work. A0 means less of B0. build a cahce (using RE!) if you feel you need more muni. If they had a 10 muni smoke that doesn't require teching, codguy? is that you? then all would be well, but they don't. They are not only useless early game, they are not very useful later on as well (let's be honest, how many times zooks penetrate on anything tougher than a flakpanzer, if they even hit). evrything in this game is RNG, RNG wills it and the enemy tank loses 200hp. nobody will risk that. outside tanks, zooks can be used on many targets and are always worthwile to have at least 1 sq uad floating around with them, why not the squad that cant fight infantry well?


I know a lot about RE zooks as in 90% of games I play the heavy cavalry and I do have double Rear echelon in late game with 4 zooks (repair and anti dive). Trust me, if you plant mines with rifles, you won't have for the zooks, nor will you have if you decide to use WP from howitzers or nades/snares. Average muni income is 35/min in 3v3s on a good day... Good luck.maybve USF needs some cheraperer mines to help offset the price of weapon upgrades then....

Paper general "I LARP WW2" reporting in

Stopped reading after "RE are a different unit, in a different faction than both pios and CE and they fill a different role entirely, so this is frankly irrelevant"

You can theory craft all you want about unit roles/positions and factions, won't improve your game.

Reality =/= Theory

Kind of off-topic, - But more helpful & productive than Vipper's word play -

but it is better to build two tank traps one in a horizontal & one in a vertical way. Using shift-build ease the pain of micro, and it is super effective.

Probably because if you build two tank traps in a row with drag, there is a gap between two tank trap that doesn't provide green cover. Building two tank traps in a different direction removes that gap.

Talking of micro of USF tips,

one more very useful micro for USF is when highly dmged infs. are retreated, take medic out of the AMB and use the healing skill(not sure of the name), and put medic back to AMB and turn on the healing. The healing aura from medic & AMB overlaps so the speed of healing is twice (or similar) as fast.

If you build horizontal + vertical will the REs get stuck between the two? I've had it happen once or twice when building multiple tank traps and left the REs by themselves.

USF isn't supposed to rely on RE.they are not meant to be an alternative to rifles. They are not supposed to be able to fight anything unsupported. Their job, as the name may hint towards, is to be in the rear. They are basically ostroppen teir that trade squad size (and thus combat power) with utility. They can do a lot of they have to, but none of it well. They are stop gap, reserve infantry not combat infantry.

Did you actually even read the f*cking post
lmfao

If you build horizontal + vertical will the REs get stuck between the two? I've had it happen once or twice when building multiple tank traps and left the REs by themselves.

I think they will have less chance of being stuck, but can't say for sure cause I haven't tested it for extreme cases. I never saw them stucked so far. The whole point of building two consecutive tank trap in different direction is to remove the gap between them. So yes, I guess it would minimize the chacne of RE getting stuck between them.

I think they will have less chance of being stuck, but can't say for sure cause I haven't tested it for extreme cases. I never saw them stucked so far. The whole point of building two consecutive tank trap in different direction is to remove the gap between them. So yes, I guess it would minimize the chacne of RE getting stuck between them.

R.E will struck between 2 tank trap if:
1/ they build the first one and turn left/right to build another > stuck. More often when you build 2 tank trap on VP.
2/ when you give them too many order "click" they will build a tank trap, stick together on 1 spot, turn left or right and build second tank trap > stuck. Just like sometime I click them to cap but 3/4 model stay in random cover and let 1 guy go.