Seems odd that JT can nuke heavy at with barrage

Huh, you're correct. For some reason I always thought that it has 4 shells at vet 0 and 125 m range. Guess this is another case where the ability range is shorter than the actual gun range

It used to be 125 when it was vet ability then JT received massive nerfs to its basic performance (some of them justified) and the barrage was changed.

Anyway it seems that some people find arguing semantics about "barrages" and "skill shots" more important than actual stats.

Based on https://coh2.serealia.ca/#147 , Wonder why Jadtiger HE barrage had 520 pen ?. That mean if a heavy tank stay in barrage area. It would take full damage from 4 shot ( if all of them hit target) ?.

If all shots hit that would be 560 (vet 0) or 720 (vet 1+) damage, and with the comparably high ROF really not too bad for an AI barrage. The question is though if it is likely to hit more than one or two shots at max range. The scatter on the barrage is quite high, especially if you fire into the fog of war.

1) Pls explain why the are different, with both of them you aim at place and shoot. Main difference is that with concrete shot you do not get that much scatter.

"Do we agree that the abilities "Hull Down" and "Firing Positions!" are not "exactly the same" and that comparing them is not really meaningful in any way?"

^ also vipper

Intellectual dishonesty is not only selfish, it's confusing for others, in a general sense.

Huh, you're correct. For some reason I always thought that it has 4 shells at vet 0 and 125 m range. Guess this is another case where the ability range is shorter than the actual gun range

No, did you watch the video? Barrage range seems to match gun range maximum.

Maybe its a bug.

No, did you watch the video? Barrage range matches gun range maximum.

No I just tested it. Gun range in the editor (or on coh2.serealia.ca) is 125 m, but the max range for the ability is 95 m. This agrees with the range in-game when I tested it. As I said, I remember it being 125 m but since the editor values are still accurate, this must have been changed a long while back already...

No I just tested it. Gun range in the editor (or on coh2.serealia.ca) is 125 m, but the max range for the ability is 95 m. This agrees with the range in-game when I tested it. As I said, I remember it being 125 m but since the editor values are still accurate, this must have been changed a long while back already...

Hmm ok. You and vipper are more familiar with the backend stats than I am currently.

What's the range on 17 pdr?

Should be 80 m according to serealia, which would explain why the JT can still handily outrange it

Should be 80 m according to serealia, which would explain why the JT can still handily outrange it

Fine, now we can discuss the OP

We're looking at a long range barrage ability that can
1. hit with low scatter
2. Has armour penetration
3. fires 5 times with vet
4. Out-ranges a 17 pdr

All this on an incredible AT platform.

Can't be right.

"Do we agree that the abilities "Hull Down" and "Firing Positions!" are not "exactly the same" and that comparing them is not really meaningful in any way?"

^ also vipper

Intellectual dishonesty is not only selfish, it's confusing for others, in a general sense.

PLS try to understand context before making non constructive allegations:

"What I find odd about this ability is that, opposed to other HE shells, it has obscenely high pen and AoE pen (same as the regular AP shells). This means it can quite reliably outright destroy support weapons instead of just decrewing them. It's also surprisingly effective vs armor (if you manage to hit, that is) for that reason, although each shell will only deal 160 damage. "

"The same goes for ISU-152 skill shot (which was recently buffed) and that combines 240 damage, guaranteed penetration, great AOE and low scatter.

Talking about scatter the JT barrage has scatter and it is not "laser accurate"."

Point here is that MMX compared barrage ability with HE shell auto-fire, if he compared with "G-530 Concrete Piercing Round" which is an ability/barrage he should not find it odd since that ability was buffed recently to 1.000 penetration.

My comment is completely relevant to MMX post and to JT's barrage behavior.

Now unless you want to argue that hulldown is actually relevant to KV-2 can you pls stop derailing you own thread by posting about me.

Fine, now we can discuss the OP

We're looking at a long range barrage ability that can
1. hit with low scatter
2. Has armour penetration
3. fires 5 times with vet
4. Out-ranges a 17 pdr

All this on an incredible AT platform.

Can't be right.

If all shots hit that would be 560 (vet 0) or 720 (vet 1+) damage, and with the comparably high ROF really not too bad for an AI barrage. The question is though if it is likely to hit more than one or two shots at max range. The scatter on the barrage is quite high, especially if you fire into the fog of war.

Which other abilities' scatter are most similar to this ones? So we can get an idea of how accurate the barrage is.

Because the replay shows some consistent shot grouping, I'm sure you'd agree.

It's frustrating that people seem to be posting without looking at the replay for context (or they're just trying to downplay its strength)

Which other abilities' scatter are most similar to this ones? So we can get an idea of how accurate the barrage is.

Because the replay shows some consistent shot grouping, I'm sure you'd agree.

A very interesting questions, I have to say I did not watch the replay.

MMX can provide you with better stat on this matter and you can also check his tools scatter this.

What is more improtant is the combination of scatter/damage/AOE

Will provide you with some stat from Sereal but they do not provide as good a picture as MMX tool:

G-530 Concrete Piercing Round
Damage 240
Scatter
Scatter angle 0
Distance offset 0.5
Distance ratio 0.1
Distance max 0
AOE Radius 6
Distance near 1.25
Distance mid 2.75
Distance far 4.5

JT supporting Fire
Scatter
Damage 160
Scatter angle 8
Distance offset 0
Distance ratio 0.0672
Distance max 10
AOE Radius 4.5
Distance near 0.5
Distance mid 1.5
Distance far 3.5

Brumbar barrage shot with scatter
Damage 160
Scatter
Scatter angle 9
Distance offset 0
Distance ratio 1
Distance max 8
AOE Radius 6
Distance near 0.625
Distance mid 1.25
Distance far 6


Fragmentation shell
AOE of 8.
AOE damage 1/0.5/0.2
AOE distance 0.15/2/8
Deals 120 damage
(I guess it has no scatter either)

One can note that Concrete round has little scatter (it is single 240damge shell thou), brumbar has slightly more but on the other hand it has better AOE and less range.
(don't have the number for the dozer but is 5 shell 70 range with scatter probably comparable to brumbar)

Both Stupa's and JT's barrages have scatter, since they fire multiple rounds

A very interesting questions, I have to say I did not watch the replay.

Please do, so that you can contribute with full accuracy on the subject.

Both Stupa's and JT's barrages have scatter, since they fire multiple rounds

Brumbar is curious case first shot has less scatter than second and third.

Brumbar is curious case first shot has less scatter than second and third.

Ok so by using these scenarios for comparison, I take it to mean that you consider the JT barrage accuracy to be similar to:
concrete piercing round and brummbar barrage.

Those are both accurate enough to be good, hence the JT scatter is also good, I take it you're saying

Both Stupa's and JT's barrages have scatter, since they fire multiple rounds

They do have scatter but I've tested it yesterday on Redball firing with and without Fog of War.
Without FOW it fires quite accurately within the circle at max range. Low scatter.
Outside of FOW it fires less accurately but still a tight scatter. In 3 activations at max range into FoW, only one shell out of all 3 barrages hit outside of the circle (approx). Tested it with a vet5 JT. Scatter exists as with all multiple shell barrages but on JT it's quite non-existent. Especially since fussies come with the commander which have premium sight and flares.

Ok so by using these scenarios for comparison, I take it to mean that you consider the JT barrage accuracy to be similar to:
concrete piercing round and brummbar barrage.

Those are both accurate enough to be good, hence the JT scatter is also good, I take it you're saying

No concrete round/(probably IS-2's Fragmentation shell too) should hit exactly where you fire it with little to no scatter.

Brumbar/(probably dozer too) should scatter slightly more on second and third round but possibly do more damage due to AOE (and as far as I remember Brumabr does extra damage to buildings.)

I suggest you ask MMX to run a comparison of these weapons in his scatter tool:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/105279/scatter-this-your-trusty-scatter-calculator

I hope you find this useful.

Which other abilities' scatter are most similar to this ones? So we can get an idea of how accurate the barrage is.

Because the replay shows some consistent shot grouping, I'm sure you'd agree.

It's frustrating that people seem to be posting without looking at the replay for context (or they're just trying to downplay its strength)

The scatter is definitely large if you're trying to hit an infantry squad or a tank, but compared to the size of something as huge as the 17 pdr it's rather negligible for sure. The picture below isn't 100% accurate but should give a good indication about how big the JT's barrage scatter is (the inner box is with vision, the outer one for firing into the FoW, both at max range of 95 m)



So, nuking a large structure like the 17 pdr is definitely no problem as long as you have constant vision on the target, and even without you shouldn't see more than one or two shots per barrage miss completely (this assumes of course that the hitbox of the gun is as large as the model, which I don't know)

And, yes, I'd say for 40 ammo that's a pretty cheap way of getting rid of it.

The scatter is definitely large if you're trying to hit an infantry squad or a tank, but compared to the size of something as huge as the 17 pdr it's rather negligible for sure. The picture below isn't 100% accurate but should give a good indication about how big the JT's barrage scatter is (the inner box is with vision, the outer one for firing into the FoW, both at max range of 95 m)



So, nuking a large structure like the 17 pdr is definitely no problem as long as you have constant vision on the target, and even without you shouldn't see more than one or two shots per barrage miss completely (this assumes of course that the hitbox of the gun is as large as the model, which I don't know)

And, yes, I'd say for 40 ammo that's a pretty cheap way of getting rid of it.

I do have to point out that actually hit box of the 17p is not the same as the area with sandbag.

This can been see if one fire an ATG will small aoe and shot land within the circle it will do little to no damage.

I did some testing and fired 10 barrage of three shots on 17p from a brumbar and JT at around max range in normal map not test range.

Brumbar did on average 577 damage (as I remembered it has bonus damage vehicles)
JT did on average 312 damage

None of them managed to destroy a full HP 17p, man brumbar damage was 700 (from a potentially max 750) and JT 460 (from a potentially max 480/800 with 3/5 shots)
17p has 900 HP.