Hi guys
I need help with my build for USF late game (3v3,4v4). Commanders with rangers.
When it comes to the late game I usually have:
AT team - 2x rangers with bazookas.
Support weapons, tanks and all the other shit ...
Anti Inf team - captain with upgrade + bar , usually vet rifleman from early game with 2x bars
But when I lose ALL my rifleman, what unit I should replace them with ? I like my captain, it gets fast + it has useful smoke, but I don't know if I should put another rangers to him and if so, should I upgrade them thomsons or 2x bars to be more align with the captain. Or I should just throw away captain and have 2x thompson rangers?
Thanks for the tips
USF lategame anti infantry team
4 Dec 2021, 20:02 PM
#1
Posts: 164 | Subs: 1
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4 Dec 2021, 22:33 PM
#2
Posts: 1515
Hi guys
I need help with my build for USF late game. Commanders with rangers.
When it comes to the late game I usually have:
AT team - 2x rangers with bazookas.
Support weapons, tanks and all the other shit ...
Anti Inf team - captain with upgrade + bar , usually vet rifleman from early game with 2x bars
But when I lose ALL my rifleman, what unit I should replace them with ? I like my captain, it gets fast + it has useful smoke, but I don't know if I should put another rangers to him and if so, should I upgrade them thomsons or 2x bars to be more align with the captain. Or I should just throw away captain and have 2x thompson rangers?
Thanks for the tips
3v3 perspective
Don't replace rifles with rangers. Rangers are only good close range. Rifles are more for medium range and they can snare. Also don't put double bars on rangers. Tried it out a couple of times, even triple bars, they still lose to vet2 LMG grens long range. Rangers are just close range.
My USF build come late:
Infantry: 3x rifles + captain BAR + 2x REchelon + major + ranger depending on map/dead rifles/...
But I always have at least 2 rifles (double snare for panthers... 1[control group]-TAB-N-click-TAB-N-click)
I always have one AAHT on stand-by. Mobile suppression platform is a must unless you plan on backteching to lieutenant. AAHT is great for shooting down planes later on and has decent suppression unless the map is crater-y. Still, even if there are craters all over the main areas, just use the AAHT as a ANTI-SNEAKY-INFANTRY-BLOBS. I play 3v3 so it's common that you're fighting on mid and somebody sneaks behind or from the side. AAHT being mobile can easily suppress such blobs especially on large maps where there's not lots of cover.
Last but not least for AI I also have double pak howi or double scotts. Depending whether the enemy is spamming werfers. Scotts are better generally, being more mobile and having access to free massive smoke barrage.
So for AI so far I've got rifles + captain + AAHT + maybe rangers + double indirect
One good solution is also: Captain ON ME on RANGERS with tommies -> charge
AT: On larger maps I go for double AT gun, on smaller, one AT gun + zooks on echelons + major (zooks upgrade only when all BARs are upgraded).
If the enemy is spamming werfers/stukas, again, I will replace the AT guns with jacksons when I have resources.
For tanks: If I can lock down a game (rarely) and my team is dominating, then I go for a fast Sherman, otherwise I stall for a Pershing. In 90% of games I play the Heavy Cavalry, in 10% I play Urban and here and there I go for pathfinders (extremely seldom).
Usually, in most games by minute 21 I have:
a) 3x rifles + captain + 2x echelons + major
b) 1-2 AT guns, 2x pak howi
I skip pak howis in 3v3 like Steppes, and instead go for rangers + one more AT gun. Mega large maps like those are not good for slow, clunky teamweapons with 1.25 target size, one ober squad and your no-cover pak howi is dead in seconds, but on maps where they have some protection, go for it. And don't get one pak howi. After the nerf, a single pak howi won't do s*** in teamgames. Learned that from experience.
c) Pershing
Then I maybe replace the AT guns with a jackson, pak howis with scotts. If AAHT gets destroyed. I rebuild it definitely... But I never ever am left without rifles. Always keep at least TWO.
One thing you have to understand about stock US infantry:
They only excel in close to medium range unless you give them LMGs. BARs are close to medium range. Only infantry that excels in long range are pathfinders and LMG paras. That's why in teamgames it's preferable to go for paras. Why?
Well axis infantry is mostly long range. vet2 Obers shred vet3 rifles at long range. Grens are also long range. Volks are long range. 3 core axis infantry are all long range specialists (well volks suck di*** late game but that's why obers exist). Late game, the fights are long range only because if you try to close in --> Geneva convention fails and you get blown up, especially in 4v4s.
Urban commander: Eh it depends, I get jacksons + calliopes and rest is just a mess. It all depends, playing urban commander is usually just copy-paste until calliope arrives. Calliope is the best AI that USF has for lategame in teamgames. There is not a single stock combination in the USF roster that can stop ober blobs + 2x A-move raketen + heavy tank + stuka. Only the calliope can deal with it in teamgames.
So that's about it when it comes to the question: "Replace anything with rangers?"
Medium-Large maps? NO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu31VyXlTzo ? Are the maps toight? Then you can have rangers (always keep rifles and captain is great, never discard it)
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
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4 Dec 2021, 23:09 PM
#3
Posts: 164 | Subs: 1
Nice. Thanks for the tips.
Unfornatelly I have to go most of the games urban assault in 3v3, 4v4 to deal with the late game blob, even tho I really like playing Heavy Cavalry more.
Because when I don't pick it more than 50% of time I regret later that I don't have calli to deal with the blob. Most of the time, the team-mates don't pick what is best for the team composition - don't even look at the commanders and pick what they want to play few seconds in the battle and I can't let my team not have any good anti blob unit
Unfornatelly I have to go most of the games urban assault in 3v3, 4v4 to deal with the late game blob, even tho I really like playing Heavy Cavalry more.
Because when I don't pick it more than 50% of time I regret later that I don't have calli to deal with the blob. Most of the time, the team-mates don't pick what is best for the team composition - don't even look at the commanders and pick what they want to play few seconds in the battle and I can't let my team not have any good anti blob unit
COH3 Stats https://coh3stats.com/
COH2 Stats https://coh2stats.com/
All the source code >> https://github.com/cohstats
COH2 Stats https://coh2stats.com/
All the source code >> https://github.com/cohstats
4 Dec 2021, 23:59 PM
#4
Posts: 1515
Nice. Thanks for the tips.
Unfornatelly I have to go most of the games urban assault in 3v3, 4v4 to deal with the late game blob, even tho I really like playing Heavy Cavalry more.
Because when I don't pick it more than 50% of time I regret later that I don't have calli to deal with the blob. Most of the time, the team-mates don't pick what is best for the team composition - don't even look at the commanders and pick what they want to play few seconds in the battle and I can't let my team not have any good anti blob unit
Yeah, shame they nerfed pak howi AOE, otherwise you could technically use them as anti blob is positioned well, but after seeing how a direct hit on a clumped up squad in yellow cover did take away 75% damage but without killing any models..... and not a single isolated incident, plenty of those. I don't know which rank you play on, but if you have a soviet ally, try to communicate with him that you need katyushas. In top 100, I don't think I see a game where land mattresses/katys/stukas/werfers are not built.
But in the end, from my experience, I've seldom lost games where I went for a calliope. Such an important unit to deal with gren/ober/falls/fussie blobs. Especially if they are backed by the usual A-move raketen.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
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5 Dec 2021, 00:35 AM
#5
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
.. Rangers are only good close range...
That is simply incorrect.
Rangers M1 is good at long range.
Even when upgrade with Thompson the retain good DPS at mid range.
5 Dec 2021, 03:28 AM
#6
Posts: 109
in 4v4 USF late game:
1. Inf:
If you lost Rifleman, dont instant call Ranger. 340 mp non vet in late game could bleed you by alot. You better:
- Rebuild office, by default they are better rifleman in Vet 0. they could take less bleed. Equip with BAR of couse.
- use RE and spam tank trap. Green cover in late game is only thing to back you troop against vetted enemies, especially Osber.
- Ranger as your second line, dont trust their vet 0 M1 rifle. You had to give them 1 BAR or even 2.
- Smoke from Mortar is best way to save your troop, Nature of USF is medium rank fire. With smoke, you force enemies come close to you !.
2. Tank fight:
- About your pick: cmd with Ranger. You better buy M20 even late game because:
+ Recon unit
+ M6 anti tank Mine to counter Axis drive.
+ Protector of you 57mm.
- M4, M36 depend on which situation: M4 for Calliop, M36 for M26.
My build order is: M20 - M4/M36 - CAlliOp - M4/M36 or M26 depend on your map control.
- M8 scott is last thing you concern, It barrage had 80 range = 88mm gun range. please remember this.
3/ Weapon support:
- USF Mortar for smoke - smoke and barrage only. Dont trust autofire. You can go mortar even late game.
- .50 cal: a so-so unit in 4v4. ALWAYS put them in cover.
- 57mm ATG: always get 2. please space them out and expect 4-5 shot brounce in row.
- Howie gun: dont build it in late game. There are deadweight.
4/ Remember late game is about MP warfare. Ranger Zoo or BAR, Thompson always your second line, Smoke from ability, mortar, M8 scott is your best friends. Dont trust a work " their M1 Rifle is good in long range". No there aren't.
Seeking for close range combat in VP. kill inf and instant retreat. Put another ranger, vetted rifleman ready and keep smoke. I prefer a good smoke barrage from 10-20m behind VP.
1. Inf:
If you lost Rifleman, dont instant call Ranger. 340 mp non vet in late game could bleed you by alot. You better:
- Rebuild office, by default they are better rifleman in Vet 0. they could take less bleed. Equip with BAR of couse.
- use RE and spam tank trap. Green cover in late game is only thing to back you troop against vetted enemies, especially Osber.
- Ranger as your second line, dont trust their vet 0 M1 rifle. You had to give them 1 BAR or even 2.
- Smoke from Mortar is best way to save your troop, Nature of USF is medium rank fire. With smoke, you force enemies come close to you !.
2. Tank fight:
- About your pick: cmd with Ranger. You better buy M20 even late game because:
+ Recon unit
+ M6 anti tank Mine to counter Axis drive.
+ Protector of you 57mm.
- M4, M36 depend on which situation: M4 for Calliop, M36 for M26.
My build order is: M20 - M4/M36 - CAlliOp - M4/M36 or M26 depend on your map control.
- M8 scott is last thing you concern, It barrage had 80 range = 88mm gun range. please remember this.
3/ Weapon support:
- USF Mortar for smoke - smoke and barrage only. Dont trust autofire. You can go mortar even late game.
- .50 cal: a so-so unit in 4v4. ALWAYS put them in cover.
- 57mm ATG: always get 2. please space them out and expect 4-5 shot brounce in row.
- Howie gun: dont build it in late game. There are deadweight.
4/ Remember late game is about MP warfare. Ranger Zoo or BAR, Thompson always your second line, Smoke from ability, mortar, M8 scott is your best friends. Dont trust a work " their M1 Rifle is good in long range". No there aren't.
Seeking for close range combat in VP. kill inf and instant retreat. Put another ranger, vetted rifleman ready and keep smoke. I prefer a good smoke barrage from 10-20m behind VP.
5 Dec 2021, 10:32 AM
#8
Posts: 1515
in 4v4 USF late game:
1. Inf:
If you lost Rifleman, dont instant call Ranger. 340 mp non vet in late game could bleed you by alot. You better:
- Rebuild office, by default they are better rifleman in Vet 0. they could take less bleed. Equip with BAR of couse.
- use RE and spam tank trap. Green cover in late game is only thing to back you troop against vetted enemies, especially Osber.
- Ranger as your second line, dont trust their vet 0 M1 rifle. You had to give them 1 BAR or even 2.
- Smoke from Mortar is best way to save your troop, Nature of USF is medium rank fire. With smoke, you force enemies come close to you !.
2. Tank fight:
- About your pick: cmd with Ranger. You better buy M20 even late game because:
+ Recon unit
+ M6 anti tank Mine to counter Axis drive.
+ Protector of you 57mm.
- M4, M36 depend on which situation: M4 for Calliop, M36 for M26.
My build order is: M20 - M4/M36 - CAlliOp - M4/M36 or M26 depend on your map control.
- M8 scott is last thing you concern, It barrage had 80 range = 88mm gun range. please remember this.
3/ Weapon support:
- USF Mortar for smoke - smoke and barrage only. Dont trust autofire. You can go mortar even late game.
- .50 cal: a so-so unit in 4v4. ALWAYS put them in cover.
- 57mm ATG: always get 2. please space them out and expect 4-5 shot brounce in row.
- Howie gun: dont build it in late game. There are deadweight.
4/ Remember late game is about MP warfare. Ranger Zoo or BAR, Thompson always your second line, Smoke from ability, mortar, M8 scott is your best friends. Dont trust a work " their M1 Rifle is good in long range". No there aren't.
Seeking for close range combat in VP. kill inf and instant retreat. Put another ranger, vetted rifleman ready and keep smoke. I prefer a good smoke barrage from 10-20m behind VP.
This can work too. Also don't listen to the troll's "advice" about rangers, there is a reason he is low rank with thousands of games. But yeah, late game you want to minimize bleed as much as possible and it's even preferable to let pak howis die if they keep getting bombarded.
Vet2 upgraded grens vs vet1 stock rangers: Grens won all 3 engagements. Smoke was used between them.
https://www.coh2.org/file/20000/grenvsranger2.jpg Pre-fight
Set owner back to me to show health values between vet3 LMG grens vs vet2 stock rangers.
Upgraded vet2 rangers vs vet3 LMG grens: Rangers win here
Note the distance. 15-20 which is the perfect distance for rangers while being inferior for grens. Grens are "the longer the better". I shudder to think how much more 240 MP grens would win vs 340 MP 10 pop doctrinal rangers, on maximum range. Of course, close range they would probably decimate grens, but good luck getting close to grens later on in the game. Also, grens can rifle nade you, most of the time it's better to stay in green cover as it negates 50% dmg. Most rifle nade wipes happen when squad tries to dodge the rifle nade a bit too late and leave cover.
So all in all, even if you go for the rangers for AI, you need the captain "On Me" to let them close in. Rangers with tommies decimate everything but falls/infrared obers in close range.
Most of the times you can witness:
Enemy LMG blob approaching and you have rangers + rifles. You know that if you close in, you win... but unless you have On Me + smoke, LMG grens will shred you as you try to approach them. So another argument for officer + smoke
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5 Dec 2021, 11:08 AM
#9
Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1
Ranger's m1 garand may have good long range stat but if you deploy them late game in mass to replace riflemen, from vet0 they will bleed heavily when go again enemy vetted long range squad like grenadier. This stack up with your mp strain and eventually can cost you the game, which make them bad choice. If Ranger happen to have a m1919 upgrade then they will indeed be great long range squad, but no, stack bar on them only further oriented them on mid range with additional risk of drop. Same for thompson, they may have good mid range dps but at the end you will still want to close in to get the most anyway.
Listen to thekess and protos, they know that they were saying. Rebuilt office, call in ranger after that, one at a time and protect them till vet.
Listen to thekess and protos, they know that they were saying. Rebuilt office, call in ranger after that, one at a time and protect them till vet.
5 Dec 2021, 11:18 AM
#10
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The claim "Rangers are only good close range" is simply false .
This is what the MOD team has to say on the matter:
"Rangers
Ranger starting weapons have been changed to give the unit different combat role before they are upgraded with various weapons. The new profile allows them to engage most infantry at range and differentiate them from Riflemen early-on. Their veterancy has also been adjusted to give them increased survivability earlier."
Given that hey can carry can be equipped even with 3 BARs ending up with better DPS than LMG grenadiers they can fight at all ranges.
They will certainly perform better than Riflemen at long range.
This is what the MOD team has to say on the matter:
"Rangers
Ranger starting weapons have been changed to give the unit different combat role before they are upgraded with various weapons. The new profile allows them to engage most infantry at range and differentiate them from Riflemen early-on. Their veterancy has also been adjusted to give them increased survivability earlier."
Given that hey can carry can be equipped even with 3 BARs ending up with better DPS than LMG grenadiers they can fight at all ranges.
They will certainly perform better than Riflemen at long range.
5 Dec 2021, 12:11 PM
#11
Posts: 164 | Subs: 1
I don't know which rank you play on
These are usually games with people on level 9 - 13, so "above average" - people usually know what to do. But when I play against top 200/400, you can usually feel the big difference and get stomped
in 4v4 USF late game:
My build order is: M20 - M4/M36 - CAlliOp - M4/M36 or M26 depend on your map control.
So I know that m20 is used a lot in higher rank games. But I don't really know how to get to it.
Usually I go captain, because I want to have AT gun, there is so many games where enemy rushes light armor and I don't really have effective response, also AA truck is quite useful and it's needed against planes late game anyway. And than I go major -> tanks...
Unless it's a good map for machine gun I don't usually Lieutenant.
And when I have major I feel like it's not effective to get m20 when I can have quick Sherman.
-----------
I tried to play with Lieutenant as first but I felt that I can't deal good AT dmg with his bazookas. And I generally had better results with captain.
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5 Dec 2021, 22:37 PM
#12
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
Protos is probably the better reference here but just my two cents:
I wouldn't replace Rifles with Rangers. They bleed quite a lot, especially at vet0. And when in doubt that snare comes in useful. I find Rangers only to be wprth it with Thompsons, which also means they become pretty much a CQC squad. It's not worth it without zooks or Thompsons.
I regularly build the second officer (usually Lieutenant) when fuel is not an issue anymore as a Rifle replacement. Saves that bit of MP, plus the additional access to the 50cal can come in handy later on.
Your only options are Rifles again. My best tip is to send them in with a vetted squad in front. This way the veteran squad draws fire while your new squad can vet up. That's overall worse for the fight, but if you do this twice or thrice, you'll kick start that squad with veterancy and it will pay off sooner.
Alternatively, use them defensively behind cover, but that's not always feasible (or even advisable given the amount of arty in 3v3+).
I wouldn't replace Rifles with Rangers. They bleed quite a lot, especially at vet0. And when in doubt that snare comes in useful. I find Rangers only to be wprth it with Thompsons, which also means they become pretty much a CQC squad. It's not worth it without zooks or Thompsons.
I regularly build the second officer (usually Lieutenant) when fuel is not an issue anymore as a Rifle replacement. Saves that bit of MP, plus the additional access to the 50cal can come in handy later on.
Your only options are Rifles again. My best tip is to send them in with a vetted squad in front. This way the veteran squad draws fire while your new squad can vet up. That's overall worse for the fight, but if you do this twice or thrice, you'll kick start that squad with veterancy and it will pay off sooner.
Alternatively, use them defensively behind cover, but that's not always feasible (or even advisable given the amount of arty in 3v3+).
6 Dec 2021, 00:49 AM
#13
Posts: 307
These are usually games with people on level 9 - 13, so "above average" - people usually know what to do. But when I play against top 200/400, you can usually feel the big difference and get stomped
So I know that m20 is used a lot in higher rank games. But I don't really know how to get to it.
Usually I go captain, because I want to have AT gun, there is so many games where enemy rushes light armor and I don't really have effective response, also AA truck is quite useful and it's needed against planes late game anyway. And than I go major -> tanks...
Unless it's a good map for machine gun I don't usually Lieutenant.
And when I have major I feel like it's not effective to get m20 when I can have quick Sherman.
-----------
I tried to play with Lieutenant as first but I felt that I can't deal good AT dmg with his bazookas. And I generally had better results with captain.
About lieu route, you could go second RE with Zoo. And Again, Build alot of Tank trap for gren cover and limit LV space.
You can use it as M3 scout car, Bigger Kubel style.
6 Dec 2021, 01:02 AM
#14
Posts: 307
The point is: Will you commit to pay a great cost to Ranger for " Long range combat " ?.
- 180 ammu for Ranger in 6 minutes or 30-40 minutes 4v4 match ?. Just dont.
even with 3 BAR, Gren LMG vet 3, osber MG34 vetted, JLI, fussiler, stromtrooper vetted always had better hand on Bleeding fight.
- manual description si cloud and clear, New ranger can fight longer range. That all. But in real combat condition. It not a good deal.
- 180 ammu for Ranger in 6 minutes or 30-40 minutes 4v4 match ?. Just dont.
even with 3 BAR, Gren LMG vet 3, osber MG34 vetted, JLI, fussiler, stromtrooper vetted always had better hand on Bleeding fight.
- manual description si cloud and clear, New ranger can fight longer range. That all. But in real combat condition. It not a good deal.
6 Dec 2021, 07:45 AM
#15
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Now that we have established that Ranger are better than rifles long range (increasing becoming better with range and having around x1.07/x1.21/x1.33/x1.36/x1.41/x1.44/x1.53! more DPS) and they are not a close range infatry only, we can move on.
Losing vetted squads is very painful for USF but that one can try to exploit USF design to try to lessen the pain.
One can try to mount the green infatry into vehicle and firing a couple of shots could help that infatry gain precious veterancy. Using M36 and Scott for that can help reduce the risk of losing both the vehicle and infatry.
Losing vetted squads is very painful for USF but that one can try to exploit USF design to try to lessen the pain.
One can try to mount the green infatry into vehicle and firing a couple of shots could help that infatry gain precious veterancy. Using M36 and Scott for that can help reduce the risk of losing both the vehicle and infatry.
6 Dec 2021, 12:00 PM
#19
Posts: 109
I repeat, this is about late game, bring Ranger to long range fight is throwed game. 0.1% more DPS not change the fact Ranger HAD TO closing in or aleast fighting in medium range as Rifleman. Dont forget at this time, Axis have better long range unit.
Instead of give OT a good build order, advice. You try to trolling around by putting your words unitl this thread got blocked.
Instead of give OT a good build order, advice. You try to trolling around by putting your words unitl this thread got blocked.
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